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[1982]

I was writing this to a reply to "Instead of making new games..." thread, but I thought this might be worth of own discussion.

first person bothers me a lot more than excessive shooting, i think first person perspective ruins games, because i play games to "play" a character, to pretend to be someone else. i can't pretend to be something i can't see

Umm. I believe one idea of FPS is to achieve more the feel of "being there" and thus game character becoming the player. While in other form of games, it is hard to feel that because I see the whatever character and think thats somebody who I only control. Not being me, or me being there. Then I don't like cutscenes in FP(S) games because those reveal the main character who obviously is not me. And immersion dies. And then I have to work back the immersion on next level, when it again dies in next cutscene. Thats why I nowadays avoid all modern crap cutscene FP(S) games. While they are great in creating the immersion (gfx, sounds, realism), they are also very successful killing it in many instances. 

I loved Doom, it just occurred me 10 years later that the dude in the cover art is the main character. How about Redneck Rampage? I still don't know what my character is, and thats great. In Arma2 (thou I only play MP) its me out there, I can even select my face and mustaches and shades etc from game options menu.

Damnit, I don't want to relate to character that has been chosen by the developers, I like to be me in that world they have created. More games should be developed through this philosophy. Simulators work very well, there are no characters at all. It is always you. Thou goals and available choices are quite restricted.

Thoughts?

[Paul Eres]

i think that's fine and it's a personal taste issue. some people like to be *themselves* in an imaginary world, some people like to be *someone else* in an imaginary world. it's just that with the trend towards everything being first person and super-customizable there's less room for those who want to pretend to be someone else in modern games

this is also why i try to make the protagonists / player characters in my games as *unlike* me as possible, (and, presumably, unlike most players)

[Christian Knudsen]

Like Paul, I personally enjoy playing a character more than playing myself. But that's probably also because I enjoy the story of a game a lot, and there's more room for developing a story around a character and giving that character a story arc when the character is clearly defined within the game.

[1982]

some people like to be *someone else* in an imaginary world.

But aren't modern massive storyline FPS games just like that? I see that there is so much "cinematic" content in those that no way you can find place for being just you or whatever you want. You are forced to be that main character or you probably wont like the experience. Btw who always looks like this anyway:

For what you are saying also about "unlike me as possible" I'd say that modern FP(S) games are exactly what you ought to like, except you don't. (I assume that no-one here or anywhere else either has lots of similarity with modern FPS game main character stereotype)

Interesting...

Or is it that you lose the immersion of being the games main character in actual gameplay sections? FP(S) games that is. That could work like exactly vice versa to me. While I too agree that I get nothing from most modern FP(S) games :D

[eld]

With deus ex human revolution they talked quite a bit on how they wanted to enhance that you're actually playing as adam jensen by showing every takedown and cover in third person.

And while something like halflife goes the entire other direction, by having the protagonist not speak or be shown at all, thus enforcing that Gordon Freeman is actually you.

[1982]

With deus ex human revolution they talked quite a bit on how they wanted to enhance that you're actually playing as adam jensen by showing every takedown and cover in third person.

And while something like halflife goes the entire other direction, by having the protagonist not speak or be shown at all, thus enforcing that Gordon Freeman is actually you.

The Deus Ex way of doing it actually distracts from the feel of being there. 3rd person view revealing "hey thats not me!". While HL approach is good, they still put a lot emphasis on some "Gordon Freeman" whoever he is.

[Christian Knudsen]

A bit of a tangent, but I don't really think first-person or third-person has much to do with immersion. I can be just as immersed in a third-person game as a first-person game if the world and characters are believable. Just like movies don't need to be shot entirely in POV to be immersive, I don't think games need to be first-person.

[Jasmine]

I've never really thought about it before.

When I get into a game, I don't think of myself as having a bodily presence in the game - I don't feel that the character I'm controlling is a virtual me. But I don't role play the character either - I don't adopt the identity of the fictional character I'm controlling.

My mind is present in the game world, as a disembodied spirit that has control over a character. I don't tend to notice myself as a player.

[1982]

A bit of a tangent, but I don't really think first-person or third-person has much to do with immersion. I can be just as immersed in a third-person game as a first-person game if the world and characters are believable. Just like movies don't need to be shot entirely in POV to be immersive, I don't think games need to be first-person.

I don't know what it is, but at least I definitely need first person to achieve real immersion. It is something to do with being able to relate my own eyes to the view I see on screen. And those eyes in the end being the same as the character in game. It does not quite work that way on any other view configuration, no matter how realistic or immersive the game would otherwise be.  And I don't think this has anything to do with credibility of characters or world, unless they start to seem clearly a joke. South Park for example is not very immersive.

However of course immersion is not fundamental thing on gaming for me, any type of game can be awesome. But from FP games I want the immersion because I know that they are by principle able to create such. However reasons mentioned they usually fail unfortunately.

In the end if I couldn't get immersion out of the FP genre, I probably would not play those games at all. None of them is THAT good. Okay Arma2 maybe exception.

I don't think movies compare because they are not interactive. Just only able to control whats happening is one huge gain for immersion. Contra (game) is more immersive than Conan (film). But real immersion in movies? Never happened, maybe slight degree relation/empathy towards some character but thats it. But good movies tend to offer completely other things than games, its hard for me to compare.

[Christian Knudsen]

You've never been immersed in the story, characters and/or world of a movie? Or a book?

I almost think the interactivity of games can sometimes be a hindrance to immersion (especially with motion controllers where you are very aware that you're standing in the middle of your living room and waggling the remote or waving your arms), since you're constantly aware of playing the game. With a movie, I can lose myself much more in the movie and almost forget I'm actually sitting in a theater watching light projected on a flat screen. A game constantly reminds you that it's just a game: you have to use a controller, you have to replay hard parts, there's often a HUD, you can jump around in time and the narrative by saving and loading games, the game world and the unfolding events often come to a complete halt until you've overcome a challenge, and so on.

[1982]

You've never been immersed in the story, characters and/or world of a movie? Or a book?

Not really in the same sense as in games. These are surely two different things. in games I am able to feel immersion about "being really there and not here" which is what I am after. Movies, books and such, its impossible to achieve that. However the "immersion" in those is something like being really eager to see what happens next and finding it enjoyable and interesting. I wish those would be more immersive, but I am afraid its impossible. I watch movies mostly from artistic point of view, than I could from immersive/relation point of view. I'd say that I treat film like paintings. Of literature I tend to prefer factual / educational material, science and biographies etc. Fiction can be interesting sure, but its not very immersive.

I agree about controls. Control system has to be really natural for not the get between you and the immersion. Basic wasd+mouse thing has become so basic control scheme for me that its not even there when I play. Sure some games can screw immersion up just with stupid game logic decisions or other restrictions. But it is only bad execution and not all the games fail there. I also have steering wheel with pedals, and it while also gives better control accuracy definitely also helps with immersion. It is too a natural way of controlling car, thou virtual one.

[C.A. Sinner]

I agree with ChrK. Interactivity makes games LESS immersive (in the sense of getting immersed in the narrative, world etc.) than literature and film.

Though I'm starting to think that maybe it's because mechanics in most games are too abstract and don't reflect the game's setting well enough. Other than realistic simulations (flight sims and driving sims), I've only played a handful of games where the mechanics actually enhanced the atmosphere etc. rather than distracting from it. Amnesia: The Dark Descent, Demon's Souls, La-Mulana and Metroid Prime are the only ones I can think of right now.

[Paul Eres]

i found bayonetta to be one of the more immersive modern games -- it was a third person action game where you played a witch, so the main characters was pretty unlike myself, and she had a strong sense of identity; i felt as if i were playing as her, rather than "controlling" her

as for story-based fps games as 1982 mentions, i've never played one. i avoid modern fps games in general, for various reasons (they don't run well on my computer, i don't like the perspective, they give me motion sickness, and the gameplay is trivial (just point the mouse and click)). i probably should play some one of these days (i've been meaning to play bioshock, which does run on my computer).

[Rm88~]

A game constantly reminds you that it's just a game: you have to use a controller, you have to replay hard parts, there's often a HUD, you can jump around in time and the narrative by saving and loading games, the game world and the unfolding events often come to a complete halt until you've overcome a challenge, and so on.

This is something I personally love, I love when games are games and are okay with being games. Lifebars, power-ups, bosses, credits, I like that. I guess I don't play for immersion at all.

And the original question: I completely agree with Peres, I like seeing the character I'm controlling. That's part of why I love fighters, there are tons of different characters to choose from, with different looks, movesets, personalities, etc. I don't feel like I'd be a good addition to the Street Fighter roster, so please let me pick a fun, interesting character instead.

[ThemsAllTook]

Damnit, I don't want to relate to character that has been chosen by the developers, I like to be me in that world they have created.

This is interesting because it's the exact opposite for me...but now that I think about it, it has everything to do with the setting of the game. If the game is an at least somewhat believable simulation of something I could do in real life (say, Gran Turismo 5 or Rock Band), then I do want to play as myself, but these games are very much in the minority of what I play. If there's any kind of original story, especially if it's set somewhere other than modern-day Earth (in fact, I strongly prefer it to be somewhere else), I don't want to pretend I'm me in the game world; I want to see the story unfold through a real character's perspective and role play as them. Trying to apply the logic and culture of my own experience as a human to the fantastical fiction world is what would break immersion for me in this case.