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[Christian Knudsen]

That's why I'm not arguing it.

[Irock]

I think Jobs was amazing when it came to marketing, design, vision, leadership and attention to detail. There are loads of computer engineers like Woz, but not many people with a mind like Steve Jobs. Wozniak would also probably be worth a lot more had he not willingly given away shares or left Apple in 1987.

[Paul Eres]

i think that if woz had made the apple computers for anyone else, that anyone else would also have become a billionaire, since those computers were (relative to the time period) so superior to the competition that they sold themselves. if there were a lot of engineers like him, someone else would have come up with a computer on the same level in that time period

even as it was, jobs almost screwed it up by being such a tyrant, and was once kicked out of his own company by the shareholders (only to return like ten years later). but that's not to say he made no good decisions; once he returned he decided to focus on music and phones instead of computers, which was a good direction for apple to go in because by that point pc's had caught up to macs in terms of usability

[Irock]

He was kicked out of the company, Apple wound up 3 months away from bankruptcy, he came back in, turned everything around and today it's the second most valuable company in the world. Apple was becoming more or less like every other corporation with no focus, no revolutions and way too many products. I don't think many people could do what Jobs did, because they couldn't do it without him. Also, Apple had tons of non-Mac hardware when Jobs wasn't there and they were failing, ranging from cameras to CD players to PDAs. The iPhone and the iPod aren't successes because Apple became involved in the phone and music industries; they're successes because the devices were revolutionary, well-done and marketed well.

But, this has nothing to do with the topic. Obviously there are people who get ahead while working and knowing less, but we just disagree on who those people are.

[Moczan]

Ha, I've a fine art degree.

I got hired from my website portfolio. I had no formal training in programming at all.

But I did get hired by a business consisting of two people. And I was cheap.

You work at Nitrome (am I right?), I would love that more than any silicon valley company anytime!

[PompiPompi]

He was kicked out of the company, Apple wound up 3 months away from bankruptcy, he came back in, turned everything around and today it's the second most valuable company in the world. Apple was becoming more or less like every other corporation with no focus, no revolutions and way too many products. I don't think many people could do what Jobs did, because they couldn't do it without him. Also, Apple had tons of non-Mac hardware when Jobs wasn't there and they were failing, ranging from cameras to CD players to PDAs. The iPhone and the iPod aren't successes because Apple became involved in the phone and music industries; they're successes because the devices were revolutionary, well-done and marketed well.

But, this has nothing to do with the topic. Obviously there are people who get ahead while working and knowing less, but we just disagree on who those people are.

You know, Steve Jobs didn't built, engineered and designed those product all by himself, he might even not got those ideas himself. He more likely just did the top level, steering decisions of the company. I doubt all the details and design in the products are his own creation.

[Irock]

He was kicked out of the company, Apple wound up 3 months away from bankruptcy, he came back in, turned everything around and today it's the second most valuable company in the world. Apple was becoming more or less like every other corporation with no focus, no revolutions and way too many products. I don't think many people could do what Jobs did, because they couldn't do it without him. Also, Apple had tons of non-Mac hardware when Jobs wasn't there and they were failing, ranging from cameras to CD players to PDAs. The iPhone and the iPod aren't successes because Apple became involved in the phone and music industries; they're successes because the devices were revolutionary, well-done and marketed well.

But, this has nothing to do with the topic. Obviously there are people who get ahead while working and knowing less, but we just disagree on who those people are.

You know, Steve Jobs didn't built, engineered and designed those product all by himself, he might even not got those ideas himself. He more likely just did the top level, steering decisions of the company. I doubt all the details and design in the products are his own creation.

I didn't say he built, engineered and designed the products himself. But he was very involved in the products and had a high standard that others simply didn't have. Furthermore, the top level decisions he did make (such as deciding to reinvent the phone based on a tablet prototype they made) were freaking great decisions that nobody else in the industry would have made, because they didn't.

You can learn more about his involvement in the company by reading stuff and listening to interviews. His biography probably has some stuff in there- I haven't read it though so I dunno.

[Moczan]

Also remember that as Apple's CEO (after his comeback), his salary was 1$/year, so you can't call that financial success 

[PompiPompi]

The point is, he is not single handledly responsible for Apple's success. Who knows, maybe some Junior engineer had the great idea of making a phone tablet, maybe some people at the "creative department".
What it shows is the unproportional praise he got, because he is in the head. He has the final word, but it doesn't mean he came up with all or any of the ideas. He has to select, but it doesn't mean he came up with the possible selections.
To be honest, I don't think Steve Jobs was such brilliant, as more like that most managers and CEOs out there don't have any idea what they are doing. I would say there is at least a ratio of 10 to 1 of workers\managers\engineers who suck compared to those who don't. Most programmers in the world suck, including those in big companies.
There might be a lot of people who are talented or even more talented than Steve Jobs as managers, but they just don't have his position so they don't have a chance to prove their worth.
You all know the dilbert comics about the incompetent managers and people at the top. You have no idea how in some cases it's true if you didn't work in the industry.
In the high tech world the people in the top are not necesseraly the most talented ones, they are just those who got there one way or another.
The same goes with engineers, most engineers are untalented at their profession, it's even more that they don't care much about their craft as they just care about making money and having a career.
They wouldn't invest a single second doing what they do at work outside of work, and that is why their craft will not evolve.

[st33d]

Ha, I've a fine art degree.

I got hired from my website portfolio. I had no formal training in programming at all.

But I did get hired by a business consisting of two people. And I was cheap.

You work at Nitrome (am I right?), I would love that more than any silicon valley company anytime!

Correct. But they wouldn't hire someone like the guy I used to be these days. And it's a proper business, that affects what you make.

My free game that I'm making at home, with no customers, sponsors or employer to tell me what to do, where I can listen to as much or as little feedback as I like and there's no deadlines. That's why I signed up here.

When I'm done with it, who knows, I may move on from here, I may move on from games altogether. We'll see.

[dustin]

hmm, interesting. but what does the y axis refer to? percent of games? percent of developers? and do the sales amount include the big cut that apple takes, or is that the actual amount that is given to devs?

in any case that doesn't look that far from what i've heard if you made one of the axes '% of total revenue'. to see what i mean, assume that there are only 100 games, and that the middle value of each bar is the average for that bar.

The Y axis is percent of applications which make that much money, I have no idea if it's before or apple's cut.

Yeah I wasn't trying to argue against you or anything, it's just a graph I thought was interesting and shows how I'm able to survive making flash games.  Even though the top % make most of the money the market is big enough that if you can pump out a couple games in the top 50% a year in a small team you can survive.

[Moczan]

Ha, I've a fine art degree.

I got hired from my website portfolio. I had no formal training in programming at all.

But I did get hired by a business consisting of two people. And I was cheap.

You work at Nitrome (am I right?), I would love that more than any silicon valley company anytime!

Correct. But they wouldn't hire someone like the guy I used to be these days. And it's a proper business, that affects what you make.

My free game that I'm making at home, with no customers, sponsors or employer to tell me what to do, where I can listen to as much or as little feedback as I like and there's no deadlines. That's why I signed up here.

When I'm done with it, who knows, I may move on from here, I may move on from games altogether. We'll see.

I know that Nitrome is a company, not an indie studio in a full meaning of it. I'm just a big Nitrome fan, that's all  I still value living from indie games above any employment

[st33d]

All things considered, it's fairly indie. There's one director, a bunch of programmers and a bunch of artists.

[Paul Eres]

Also remember that as Apple's CEO (after his comeback), his salary was 1$/year, so you can't call that financial success 

he owns stocks; when the value of the company goes up, he gets more money. also: ceos often get bonuses beyond just their salary

@dustin - understandable, i wasn't trying to say you were saying something different, i was just clarifying that what i said and the what the chart says were not contradictory, even though "visually" it might appear that way (mainly because the bottom axis is sort of logarithmic)

[Irock]

The point is, he is not single handledly responsible for Apple's success. Who knows, maybe some Junior engineer had the great idea of making a phone tablet, maybe some people at the "creative department".

No, it was his idea to make a multi-touch phone.

There's a reason Steve Jobs is regarded so highly. Either he, Apple and everyone he ever worked with have conspired to make it seem like Steve Jobs is heavily involved when he's not, or it's actually true. I think it's the second one.