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[tesselode]

I'm going to go ahead and use this thread to say something that probably doesn't deserve it's own thread (it's related).

When I beat Super Meat Boy, it gave me a feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment that I forgot existed, as the last time any game accomplished that was when I beat SMB3. Nintendo has forgotten that when you make a game challenging, it is actually satisfying to beat. Nowadays all of Nintendo's games are quite easy, so when you beat it, you're like "eh, that was okay."

Games should have some amount of challenge.

[James McCloud]

I think this is the reason I've gravitated toward indie games.  The first one I was really interested in (Super Meat Boy) was hard, and brought back memories of playing the old school mario games.  Most of the indie games I've bought are hard.  I always replay games on hard mode. 

So I agree with Tesselode, that games should be hard, or at least have the option.  I'm not saying it should go the old school Contra route, where the game is just hard, and a difficulty "curve" was a vertical line.  But there should be the option.

One game I think did difficulty right was Batman: AA.  Not only is everything easier on lower difficulties, the game actively helps you with the mechanics (indicating when to block, etc.).  SO after you beat it normally and restart in hard, suddenly you don't have a crutch, so you have to actually watch the enemies, and be aware, especially because now you have 4 hits and you're dead.  Getting through each group of enemies is a challenge.  If you get caught, there's a good chance of death.  It's difficult, it encourages more resourceful playing, and defense especially.  The game ceases to be a simple beat em up, and each fight begins to leave you with adrenaline, making you focus on all of the enemies, making sure none will hit you, and countering.

I have a feeling that my post completely went off topic somewhere.

I suggest that this thread be split into a thread about the topic of difficulty in video games (If there isn't one already that I'm missing).


Edit:  Level 2!

[SirNiko]

I felt like Bionic Commando: Rearmed also had an excellent difficult curve. The game had five difficulty levels, ranging from "Really Easy" to "Really Hard".

In the easiest difficulty level there are extra platforms over most pits and the most difficult foes do not appear. Moving up to Normal the platforms gradually disappear and the extra monsters reappear. Bosses move more quickly.

As you go to Hard, bosses add in low attacks to their repertoire, which are more difficult to spot and hit. Enemies shoot more bullets, forcing you to use the arm to deflect them (whereas before you could simply duck).

In the hardest difficulty, enemies can throw grenades down through platforms to get you in places that were previously safe. Bosses move faster and have a much wider range of movement. Enemies shoot tons of bullets, so in addition to the arm deflect you must use human shields, a move that is only for fun in the easier levels.

The result is that the game gradually takes away crutches and teaches you to use new tricks.

[DavidCaruso]

NSMBW is only a blast with only multi player of various skill and level, it makes for hilarious moment and brave surge, when the less skilled player is the only one left in a difficult sequence and is tasked to get at the end or the middle point and suddenly succeed through unexpected rush of adrenaline under the encouragement of everyone (breath now).

The fact they made small platforms (for 4 players), the impossibility to go through each other, to jump on each other, to be able to pick each other and more of all, bubble (genius idea it is) is what make the game great. I had never consider playing the game for less than 4 and would like they continue this thread of 4 player cooperation/competition high polished game (four sword for the win).

I really do feel like the game was primarily designed as a multiplayer experience. That's where it was the most fun for me, at least. The campaign was a bore in single player, give me throwing friends into pits any day. The bubbles were cool, but in retrospect it was kind of lame how we'd just all go into them any time we felt like any of us were about to die (when we weren't actively trying to kill each other for laughs, anyway) and retry the level.

Also I don't remember mario 3 to be that difficult save for some optional skippable level or some flying ship. I'm not sure supermario world was actually hard at all, and I remember yoshi island being a breeze to go through. I don't know mario game for their extreme difficulty (save smb1 and Jsmb2).

Mario games weren't ever extremely hard except for SMB2J, yeah. I want to sit down and try to clear it one of these days but my backlog just keeps growing huger. SMB3J had a major difference where getting hit as a powered up Mario always powered you down to small Mario (instead of fire Mario -> super Mario -> small Mario), so that made it sting a bit more, but even the US version was still harder than NSMBW. I haven't played SMW in about 2 years but I remember some of the later levels being relatively difficult (Yoshi's Island is a complete joke though.)

I'm going to go ahead and use this thread to say something that probably doesn't deserve it's own thread (it's related).

When I beat Super Meat Boy, it gave me a feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment that I forgot existed, as the last time any game accomplished that was when I beat SMB3. Nintendo has forgotten that when you make a game challenging, it is actually satisfying to beat. Nowadays all of Nintendo's games are quite easy, so when you beat it, you're like "eh, that was okay."

Games should have some amount of challenge.

Not that I disagree at all with you, but I don't feel Super Meat Boy is exactly the best example to give here. For me, the infinite lives combined with the stupidly short levels (basically, savestates) almost put me into a coma. It didn't help that the main character's air inertia was higher than Sonic the Hedgehog's (in a game where jumps have to be twenty times more precise) and there were only one or two different ways to beat each level.

Difficulty levels: Alien Soldier 4 lyfe. You either get Supereasy (normal) or Superhard (very hard), nothing inbetween!

[Rm88~]

Galaxy 2 had an okay difficulty level, didn't it? There are even some parts that caused me more trouble than I'd like to admit

[TaintedFork]

To me, the game seemed appealing, but the more I hear about it, the worse it sounds.

I probably won't be getting it on launch, but may check out reviews and cave eventually.

Also, this: http://brawlinthefamily.keenspot.com/2011/10/03/367-tanooki-madness/ 

[Headless Man]

Galaxy 2 had an okay difficulty level, didn't it? There are even some parts that caused me more trouble than I'd like to admit

Galaxy 2 had some parts that were fucking impossible.  NSMB Wii is about as hard as SMB3 as well.

[tesselode]

Galaxy 2 had an okay difficulty level, didn't it? There are even some parts that caused me more trouble than I'd like to admit

Galaxy 2 had some parts that were fucking impossible.  NSMB Wii is about as hard as SMB3 as well.

NSMBW is definitely NOT a hard as SMB3.

[SirNiko]

When you say NSMBW is not harder than SMB3, are you factoring in save points and carrying over your items? Are we talking about completing the game, or also doing optional levels? SMB3 with save points seems way easier to me than NSMBW.

NSMBW starts even the early levels with high-speed moving platforming, lots of opportunities to tumble into pits and poisonous marshes, and more difficult levels in general. The bosses are notably much more difficult.

SMB3 offers a wide assortment of items that let you skip whole levels if you choose. Even if you discount all those items, the level designs tend to be short and have only simple obstacles. There is never, for example, a level like in NSMBW where you have to dodge falling magma rocks or waves of lava. Super Mario Bros 3 has, at its peak, the Angry Sun which moves in an extremely predictable pattern (And can be killed with a power star or well timed tail swipe).

You might drop a few difficulty points if you ignore the optional star coins and bonus levels in the special world, but even without those NSMBW seems much more consistently difficult and has a higher final difficulty than SMB3 ever had.

Why do you think NSMBW is easier?

[tesselode]

When you say NSMBW is not harder than SMB3, are you factoring in save points and carrying over your items? Are we talking about completing the game, or also doing optional levels? SMB3 with save points seems way easier to me than NSMBW.

NSMBW starts even the early levels with high-speed moving platforming, lots of opportunities to tumble into pits and poisonous marshes, and more difficult levels in general. The bosses are notably much more difficult.

SMB3 offers a wide assortment of items that let you skip whole levels if you choose. Even if you discount all those items, the level designs tend to be short and have only simple obstacles. There is never, for example, a level like in NSMBW where you have to dodge falling magma rocks or waves of lava. Super Mario Bros 3 has, at its peak, the Angry Sun which moves in an extremely predictable pattern (And can be killed with a power star or well timed tail swipe).

You might drop a few difficulty points if you ignore the optional star coins and bonus levels in the special world, but even without those NSMBW seems much more consistently difficult and has a higher final difficulty than SMB3 ever had.

Why do you think NSMBW is easier?

SMB3 gets harder faster. Of course, it might just be I was more experienced at Mario games by the time I played NSMBW.

[cystem glitch]

I'd like to chime in with some empiric evidence, when I went and visited my brother I played New Super Mario Brothers Wii with my niece and it was awesome. I wasn't sure young kids would be able to kick ass in that style of game, I thought maybe having a Wii and being a girl she wouldn't take to that type of platforming but she rocked. When my brother played, if she called dibs on a power up and he stole it she would school him, knocking him into holes and tearing him a new one. We grew up on SMB3 but his kid was handing his ass to him . Anyway, when they came to visit me we played some SMB3 and a lot of her skills translated well, in general she was pretty fearless and would try awesome balls to the wall stuff and pull off amazing things. But when we got to the later levels they got real difficult and she had to let someone else get past some of the tough ones. And I gave her like 30 back to back tries on Bowser's castle but she couldn't do it. She beat NSMB Wii no problem.

If that was too long didn't read, NSMBW delivers plenty of hardcore platforming and is a shit ton of fun in multiplayer, but going by just memories you might be glossing over some of the challenge in SMB3. Granted, you can find the secret whistles and skip straight to the end, or P-wing over a tough level or whatever if you are a pussy, but if you play them 'pure' there is a whole lot of challenge in that game. Also, it's intensified when you play with 2 players because you have to sit through someone else's turn in the shame of defeat if you eat it, and you are less likely to skip the hard levels if there is a bit of a competitive nature in the air.

One last thing that is actually way more important than it might seem, you have to beat SMB3 in one sitting. It really saps the challenge and the pressure that you can restart at the same place from a save state, even in Super Mario World the game is a lot staler since you can just pick up where you left off, and levels don't get unbeat if you have to continue.

[dustin]

Huh that's interesting at SMB3 but I might say a lot of her trouble is just being used to NSMBW so it seems normal that she would have trouble with the later levels of SMB3 just like you and your brother had more trouble then her in NSMBW.

If we're just talking level for level I think NSMBW is harder.  Of course if your counting saving as part of the difficulty that changes things but I really think that SMB3 has no saving not for game design reasons but for cost reasons.

[_Tommo_]

Galaxy 2 had some parts that were fucking impossible.  NSMB Wii is about as hard as SMB3 as well.

Nah, I re-played SMB3 after a really long while and it was a lot more punishing on the player, the physics were a lot more stiff, so I think it's harder than NSMBW.
And those were only the first levels. SMB3 ramps up in difficulty towards insane near the end, while apart from some bonus levels NSMBW is always sane enough.

[Gimym TILBERT]

SMB3 only have peak of difficulty on some level, overall smb3 is harder if you factor it's the mario with the most level and the most secret. If you go for the secret the challenge ramp up (and they were true secret, no 101% counter collectible bullshit). But on average (without those quirks) I would say it's about the same.