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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress meets The Outer Wilds? "Ultima Ratio Regum", v0.10.1 out Feb 2023  (Read 177681 times)
Ultima Ratio Regum
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« Reply #660 on: August 03, 2015, 11:34:08 AM »

I'm glad you've already considered this.  Even a "No, it is out of scope" would be better than nothing.  Keep up the good work!

Thanks! And will do. This week's update will probably be about GDC Europe (where I find myself writing this from), but after that I hope to have all ambient NPC life finished. Hopefully.
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« Reply #661 on: August 08, 2015, 02:16:24 AM »

This week's post is a trip report on my time at GDC (talking about procedural generation) and Gamescom!

http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2015/08/08/gdc-europe-and-gamescom/
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« Reply #662 on: August 08, 2015, 06:10:29 AM »

Wait a moment, I had a discussion about PGC not long ago and how game have little breakthrough or habit in implementing NPC and crowd. Is that your game (with dwarf fortress) the rare one that play with npc beyond spawned information puppets? If so I hope that you inseminate thoughts and inspire people to go down that path, especially for 3D PGC game. Given that you also have procedural hint trails, you also might have a proto quest/story generation that go beyond fetch quest and might end up state of the art and I hope it works as intended and inspire people to study how it works!
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« Reply #663 on: August 09, 2015, 10:55:47 AM »

If you have trouble with conversation, I would direct you to emily's short design breakdown of all the conversation mechanics in game, it's a must read, might give you ideas! Of course since it's covering the whole spectrum of interactive conversation you won't need all, but it will give a solid ground with practical concept and implementation for your own need. Even though she spoke from the perspective of the IF genre, the many trope use in if are also used elsewhere (menu choice is therefore covered). The concept being both abstract AND practical it's easy to translate them to PGC as she laid out guideline that can be translated into rules, especially as she spend great time outlining the pro and con and the limit of each model. IMHO she is the sharpest designer in the whole community of dev, period.

Emily's works:

- the basics
https://emshort.wordpress.com/how-to-play/writing-if/my-articles/conversation/
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2009/05/column_homer_in_silicon_the_co_1.php
http://www.tigsource.com/2009/05/14/emily-short-conversation-methodologies/ (masterclass in the comment)

- series on modeling conversation, cover all the state of the art, practical
https://emshort.wordpress.com/page/3/?s=modeling+conversation+flow
https://emshort.wordpress.com/page/2/?s=modeling+conversation+flow
https://emshort.wordpress.com/?s=modeling+conversation+flow

- the breakthrough design masterpiece on cnversation, to read!
https://emshort.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/versu-conversation-implementation/
https://emshort.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/versu-content-structure/


optional
https://emshort.wordpress.com/how-to-play/writing-if/my-articles/action-and-interaction/

- less filtered version of the conversation modelling series
https://emshort.wordpress.com/category/conversation-modeling/

- More overkill details about versu
https://versublog.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/versu.pdf
https://versublog.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/ptai_evans.pdf
https://versublog.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/praxis.pdf
https://versublog.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/graham_versu.pdf

- her analysis of how information, story and design merge in some game is insightful for building our own implementation in any games.
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/column_homer_in_silicon/7.php
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/column_homer_in_silicon/6.php
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/column_homer_in_silicon/5.php
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/column_homer_in_silicon/4.php
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/column_homer_in_silicon/3.php
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/column_homer_in_silicon/2.php
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/column_homer_in_silicon/

- random
https://emshort.wordpress.com/how-to-play/reading-if/
https://emshort.wordpress.com/how-to-play/reading-if/plot-and-narrative/
https://emshort.wordpress.com/how-to-play/writing-if/


There is also correlation between writing conversation and a game based on scattering information on a spatial basis (and the gating that generally goes with like in adventure games). Instead of mapping the discourse structure into a conversation interface, where the player navigate through a network (generally a tree) of information, the world space became the discourse map by scattering information onto place that act like topics. I do not know if this part is clear Huh?



« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 02:30:27 PM by Jimym GIMBERT » Logged

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« Reply #664 on: August 11, 2015, 10:15:43 AM »

Gimbert, I was gonna say that's a ton of reading but then I saw one was optional so it's not too much.

Seriously though, thanks for that! Even though it wasn't intended for me there is lots of good information there.
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Ultima Ratio Regum
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« Reply #665 on: August 14, 2015, 02:40:30 PM »

Wait a moment, I had a discussion about PGC not long ago and how game have little breakthrough or habit in implementing NPC and crowd. Is that your game (with dwarf fortress) the rare one that play with npc beyond spawned information puppets? If so I hope that you inseminate thoughts and inspire people to go down that path, especially for 3D PGC game. Given that you also have procedural hint trails, you also might have a proto quest/story generation that go beyond fetch quest and might end up state of the art and I hope it works as intended and inspire people to study how it works!

In essence... yes. That's definitely the direction I want to go, and have as many intrigues and clues and ideas in the NPCs as in everything else in the in-game world! Quest generation isn't really my intention... well, it sort of is. We have one massive quest with the clues scattered around the world, but I'm not really after generating smaller quests, and certainly nothing of the fetch quest variety. So generating the uber-quest, which I've actually been doing a lot of thinking on recently. The Roguelike Radio episode we recorded a few nights ago about "Information in Roguelikes" will tell you a lot about this, so I recommend giving that one a listen once it comes out! But yeah: I want *interesting* NPCs at all costs.

Conversatio stuff

Wow, thanks so much for these links! I've only skimmed them so far but these look like exactly the kind of high-level summaries I was looking for. I'll be giving these more thought later.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #666 on: August 14, 2015, 03:22:23 PM »

well there is also the hi level video summary here too as a complement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1XdzGXAYYA&feature=youtu.be&t=7m (30mn)

Glad it helpt!
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Ultima Ratio Regum
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« Reply #667 on: August 15, 2015, 02:41:13 AM »

well there is also the hi level video summary here too as a complement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1XdzGXAYYA&feature=youtu.be&t=7m (30mn)

Glad it helpt!

Thanks for the link!

This week, I wrote a detailed review of David Craddock's new "Dungeon H@cks" book about the history of roguelikes: http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2015/08/15/dungeon-hcks-book-review/
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Ultima Ratio Regum
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« Reply #668 on: August 22, 2015, 01:48:02 AM »

It has been a busy fortnight, with house-moving (in progress) and secret projects (almost ready to start) and programming (proceeding nicely) and various other endeavours (far from complete), but I’ve finished all ambient crowd behaviour, and a couple of other things besides. Here’s a pretty massive round-up of what has been happening in the last three weeks since the last full URRpdate:

Priest Clothing

I decided to work last week on a second of the four high-level clothing archetypes (feudal, nomadic, hunter-gatherer, religious) – the religious clothing. For this I did a standard expansive image search, collated a range of religious dresses, and then attempted to break them down into commonalities, differences, and readily exchangeable parts. The colouring of each piece of religious clothing, much like the prayer mats we saw a few weeks ago, are connected to the altars they worship at. The highest-ranking priests in the religion will have slightly snazzier robes, whilst if the religion has any kind of poverty-is-holy ideology or similar, they might have duller robes. Here is a set of six possible robes all using a potential “demonic” colour scheme (just since that’s the one I was testing the systems with, but how nice do they look?!), and then some with their attendant altars alongside (one “Eldritch” archetype, one “Pantheon”, and two “Standard”), and lastly an example of the higher tier of religious clothing reserved for religious leaders (hence the lovely gold filigree):







Priests use the same shoes as the nation they’re in, and usually the lower-class variation (though in some religions priests will be barefoot). With these done, that means approximately half the clothing generation for 0.8 is done – feudal clothing is 99% finished (I just need to put in a few final touches to the lower-class variations) and religious clothing is now finished. I’ll probably work on nomadic clothing next, as I have a few ideas of what archetypes I want to generate those around, then I’ll do hunter-gatherer clothing probably last before this version’s release. Armour and things like that will come later (0.9?) so for the time being, all soldiers and other military personnel just have lower-class clothing, or upper/middle-class if they are officers (which in the future they’ll probably keep, but just wear beneath their armour).

Slums and Encampments

The last few areas which needed handling for NPCs have been dealt with. NPC crowds now spawn, move and despawn intelligently in slums outside major cities, and also in hunter-gatherer encampments. Pictures of slum, and encampment, and example crowds:





Remaining Interior Behaviour

All buildings which can have crowds in them (e.g. a tavern can have randoms wander in. but a royal mint cannot) now have those crowds behaving intelligently at all times, and – as far as I can tell – this is entirely glitch/bug/crash free regardless of what building, what civilization, what demographics the NPCs in question are, etc. Here are some examples of an arena and a longhouse, since I thought these were both rather pleasing, especially in the longhouse as people gather around the table:





Pathfinding Problems

Some buildings and some parts of the external map were starting to produce a problem – if you had two NPCs (or an NPC and the player) trying to get through the same one-tile tunnel between walls, at the same time, then they couldn’t slip past each other. I implemented a temporary solution (whereby crowd NPCs will look for another objective if they find someone blocking the one-tile route down to their current objective) but this wasn’t good enough for the future, especially once we begin handling important NPCs whose paths cannot just be changed on a whim. So, now, if you have two NPCs who meet, and NPC 1 is trying to move onto the tile NPC 2 is on, and NPC 2 wants to move onto the tile NPC 1 is on, *and neither of them can find another way around* by stepping on a diagonal, and they would both allow the other to step past them (so they aren’t enemies), then the game will look at which one of them has the longest wait until their next turn, and then schedule a special “simultaneous” turn for them both to switch places at the same instant for that more distant turn (so that neither NPC can move “faster” than it should be able to). I’ve now implemented this to work indoors and work outdoors, so here’s an outdoor (filmed in “slow motion” to make it clear) example of this:



However, this became trickier when I wanted to combine it with the player. Clearly the player should be able to do this as well, but it required writing quite a hefty new chunk of code, for handling if the player tries to move through an NPC, or an NPC tries to move through the player, because obviously I don’t want to remove agency from the player, or allow NPCs to shove the player around the place (as that would get quickly annoying), but nor should the player somehow be able to exploit this ability to move NPCs around the map (I’m not sure how this could be an issue in the future, but it seems better to just produce a robust system now rather than worrying about it later). Either way, we clearly needed a way for NPCs to walk past the player if the player is being an ass and standing in the way:



So, there are two scenarios: what if the player wants to move onto another NPC, and what is another NPC wants to move onto the player. It would be deeply annoying to allow the player’s character to be “pushed around” by other NPCs, so that was something I knew I had to avoid, but at the same time I had to ensure that you cannot exploit the system by somehow pushing around NPCs yourself. If an NPC wants to move onto the player, therefore, they initiate a special two-turn move, where the NPC takes two turns instead of one and “squeezes” past the player, taking both moves on the second turn – so from the player’s perspective, the NPC moves next to them on Turn 0, remains there for Turn 1, and then moves to the other side of them on Turn 2. If the player moves in the interim, then normal pathfinding resumes and the two-turn move is cancelled. (Of course, the two turn move only works if the tile beyond the player is free, the player and the NPC’s relations are friendly enough that the player would let the NPC get past, etc). Here’s an example, where I start off looking at the approaching slave, then turn to the other side, and sure enough the slaves pass “through me” using this special two-turn move:



This also results in a message being printed, along the lines of “The [NPC type] squeezes past you”. The other version is; what if the player wants to get past an NPC who is blocking a one-tile area? An NPC blocking a one-tile area and standing *still* should be an impossible scenario – I am certain there are no areas which are valid for crowd NPCs adopting the “meandering” walking type which are also only one-tile wide – so if one encounters an NPC in an enclosed space, it’ll be if you and the NPC are moving towards each other and need to cross over. If the NPC “initiates” the move, we get the scenario shown above. If the player initiates the move, then the game looks at both the player and the NPC, does the usual check of whether they are allowed to move through or not (this might have to wait until 0.9, as it’s going to be a complex calculation – for now it just returns “yes”) and then, if so, it has the player move along with the obstructing person during the later of their two turns (so if the player is next scheduled to move on turn 18174, and the NPC on turn 18175, then both will move on 18175, so that neither character is able to have a “free turn”). You then switch places with them, as shown in this example, where I step into an NPC who I am friendly enough with to switch places, then I turn around (taking one turn) and we therefore see the NPC two turns behind me, and they then leave. Had I just stood still, then they would have initiated the two-turn move, going “through” me without forcing my movement.



The three systems shown here also work when indoors as well as outdoors. These are all very rare scenarios, and I suspect will (for the most part) only happen if the player is standing deliberately still to try to annoy the NPCs, but it still needed handling. With all of this done, I am now… 99% that all NPCs of all categories, whether inside or outside, and whether dealing with the layout of the terrain, the motion of other NPCs, or the motion of the player themselves, should be able to path correctly past any obstacles (I think there is still one final minor non-crash bug here involving NPCs who have stopped to admire something, and if they have stopped in a “line”, then other NPCs may struggle to get past, but I’m working on fixing that one). As a last note on this, it’s also worth noting that in almost all cases I’ve worked hard to ensure every corridor/path both inside and outside is, in most cases, at least two tiles wide. However, in certain areas – slave quarters, some cathedral generations, slums, and a bunch of other places – one tile corridors can generate, so it was clearly important to handle these sorts of scenarios.

Also, now I need to at some point have you be able to switch your “walking style” from “walking” to “shoving” (or “pushing”, maybe?) so that in the rare possibility of a blockade (which I *think* should be impossible, as I’ve modeled spawning a bunch of NPCs on every tile in an enclosure and they’ve always managed to find their way out so far) you can always push your way through NPCs and force them all to move into the position you previously occupied, though that might not make them all that friendly to you. Nevertheless – and although I’m not even sure such a scenario can ever happen – it seems like an important addition which I’ll probably add this release, and it should be simple (note if there’s an NPC there, and if so, just switch places with it).

Campfires

Hunter-gatherer encampments now have campfires, beds, and tables. Only the fires so far have an image, but the beds and tables will be made of either wood or stone, and will get images before the end of this release:



We still need more variation and detail in these areas – a lot more, honestly – but hunter-gatherer areas now look slightly less bleak and empty than they did a little while ago (in the above picture you can see some stone chair/tables and a second fire). More soon, hopefully, though anything beyond tables, chairs and beds might have to wait until 0.9 or a little beyond. I’m focusing on feudal nations this release (although all NPCs will be present), and it’ll probably be the next release when I do more on nomadic and hunter-gatherer NPCs and societies.

Guards

We now have guards! Guards appear outside Parliaments, Mints, Embassies, Officers’ Quarters, Armouries, Mansions and Citadels in the middle of Fortresses, and also inside Banks and Arenas (the former to guard the vaults, the latter to keep the crowd at bay and make sure nobody interferes with the combat). The game also now notes every part of the map which needs a special “permission” in order to access it, and guards are tethered to certain permissions, meaning that if the player steps onto a tile which has the (‘Embassy’,24) permission and the player isn’t from the nation with the id# 24, then the guards will act – right now the game just registers this since the conversation system isn’t in yet, but that’s the plan. So, here are some guards doing their guarding thing (they currently wear standard clothing since armour generation doesn’t exist yet):



And then here’s a slice of the visual map, and the “forbidden” map, which shows the parts of the terrain close to the armoury door which will trigger the ire of the guards, so we can see that anything within the courtyard, and some of the tiles just outside the the gate, will trigger their ire (the guards don’t show up on this view, but as we saw above, the guards are basically standing just outside the gate):



So, now we just wait until later this release when I get working on a conversation system and the guards can accost you! More on this later once I figure out how precisely it works, but all the guards spawn, and detect intruders, and that’s all that matters for now.

Distance Demographics

The crowd’s demographics now vary according to the expansiveness of the nation in question. By this I mean – if the nation is small, then all people spawn with the genetic demographics (skin tone, hair colour, eye colour, etc) of the capital, or nearby. If the nation is large, the game will sometimes look for a random tile in that nation’s territory to choose the demographics from (which is to say, if you’re in the capital city it’ll normally be a “capital person”, and sometimes someone from further out; if you’re in a town, it’ll normally be a “town person”, but sometimes someone from further out) and use those to spawn the person instead; and if the nation has colonies it’ll do the same. This means if you run into two people in a nation with the same cultural demographics (clothing, hairstyles, etc) but very different skintone/hair colour etc, then you can reasonably deduce that nation is either very large, or has some colonies somewhere. Here are two examples of this kind of crowd, and the latter you’ll note has a priest leading some followers (the priest of course now spawns with the right robes). Rather annoyingly I wasn’t able to quickly find a nation which had colonies/homelands with skin tones at the two extreme ends of the spectrum, but you still get the idea from these of a lot more variation in the larger and more expansive empires:





Another thing this has got me wondering: in future versions (0.9 or 0.10 onwards) all the map except your home nation will be in shroud when you start. Should colonies be “lit” or not? I think the best solution is that colonies don’t start as explored, and if you take a ship to one of your own nation’s colonies, perhaps all the colony land is then revealed when you arrive? In contrast, normally, you’ll just explore the tiles around you as you move, and if you take a ship, it will perhaps show you the ocean path you move along? That seems like a good compromise without having a situation where you start with a few chunks of the map explored which are disconnected from your nation’s homeland.

Lesser Houses

I’ve now implemented the first stage in generating families/houses which are less important than the small number at the top of each civilization (one of which, of course, belongs to the player) but are still noteworthy. In nations with the “Vassalage” ideology, one of these families will have a special “Manor” building spawn in each town in that nation, and a family rules each of these manors and therefore each town. In Vassalage nations the other smaller buildings in upper class districts will also belong to these families (so they have a manor, and a home in the capital), whilst in non-vassalage districts these buildings will also belong to second-tier families, but not “special” ones (as in, rich merchants or whatever, not those with direct feudal/political power). However, for the vassalage nations, these all needed coats of arms! So, I’ve returned to the sigil generation system and added in the ability for “lesser” houses to have coats of arms. These are much simpler than the major houses, and have a geometric pattern determined by the aesthetic preference of their nation (octagon, square, circle, cross, diamond) which feeds into an algorithmic sequence that combines various elements (I’ll also add a system ensuring there can’t be more than 5 vassalage nations, and they can’t share a shape, to ensure variety across the game world). Now, bearing in mind of course there are meant to be for lesser/more general houses… what do you think?



Compare, of course, with some examples of important families:



So what do you think of the minor ones? Good, bad, too little detail, too similar, just right…? Of course, they still need mottoes, and I’m thinking of having it tether them to the towns they’re from in some way (or perhaps these lesser houses don’t have mottoes?).

What next?

Next up I’ll be working on adding more “fixed” NPCs like guards – so this means tellers in banks, priests in religious buildings, servants in mansions, officers in officers’ quarters, delegates in parliaments, and so on. This week is probably also going to see a little bit of reworking of some aspects of world generation, since I need to add in a system for vassalage nations to generate and track these other houses, and for parliamentary nations to figure out how many delegates they should have (I have a cool system planned for this), and I might add in the new “Monastic” religious ideology I’ve been thinking about for a while too. Either way, I’d say we’re about 75% through NPC mechanics at this point, and in a fortnight or so I think everything with NPCs should be finished, and then we can move onto the other massive part of this release – conversations. See you next week!
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« Reply #669 on: August 30, 2015, 02:04:55 AM »

This week I’ve implemented almost all the “stationary” NPCs. To explain what I mean by this, URR has three “tiers” of NPC: the crowd, the stationary, and the crucial. Crowd NPCs spawn and despawn as the player moves around the world map and are of importance insofar as they demonstrate the demographics of the nation, and you will be able to acquire significant information about the generality of the nation/religion/culture they belong to from them, and they serve also, when in crowds, to illustrate something of that nation’s ideologies (so you’ll only see a crowd with a bunch of people trailing a priest in quite a religious nation, for instance). Stationary NPCs are positioned in locations where there must always be an NPC serving a certain function, but the individual is not of particular important. Examples would be priests in religious buildings, jailers in prisons, innkeeps, guards, and many others. In some cases these individuals will “change” around after time – guards, for example, will be “met” by another guard at a certain point who will then take over the guarding role, i.e. they change shifts – whilst others, like priests, will obviously not change every few hours. Crucial NPCs, meanwhile, are those NPCs who are of sufficient importance to the game and the world that regardless of where the player is, the actions and movements of these NPCs will always be tracked. This category is primarily for NPCs like rulers, religious leaders, inquisitors, heretical leaders, nobles, military officers, and the like. Also, very rarely, what appears to be a stationary NPC will actually be a crucial NPC. Which is to say: in a jail, maybe 95% of the prisoners will be “general” prisoners, but a tiny number might have massive global significance due to their past role in a grand plot, and one wouldn’t know which was which until uncovering a path of clues which lead you to the important prisoner. Ninety-nine out of every hundred priests might be good loyal clerics… but perhaps one in a hundred hides an religious artefact of immense importance in their private quarters?

So, this week it has been the turn of all the stationary NPCs. Here are some examples:

Priests

Priests now spawn in religious buildings and cathedrals. In religious buildings, the priest lives on the top floor and will return there in the evenings; in cathedrals they have distinct rooms on the ground floor to which they will retreat as and when appropriate. For the time being,  however, they just spend their time around the ground floor of the cathedral interacting with the worshipers, going about their own worship, etc. There is actually a tiny bug in the below gif – the priest was standing on the same tile at the altar, when they should be standing next to the altar – but I’ve since fixed that, but I otherwise rather liked this gif so decided to stick with it.



Embassies

Embassies now have clerks and diplomats in them; the clerks are probably going to be “general” NPCs in the embassy crowd, whilst I think diplomats will be assigned to specific areas. The ambassadors for each nation in other nations will be crucial NPCs who will always be tracked separately, so they haven’t been coded just yet.



Servants/Slaves

Servants/slaves (depending on whether the nation is a slaving nation or not) now spawn and go about their business sensibly in upper-class houses. The houses will also, of course, get visitors in the form of various aristos from time to time, and then later, we’ll get working on the “crucial” NPCs – i.e. the family who lives there – generating properly. Thus, for now, here’s an example of some servants and some general citizens. You’ll note the servants will always stand next to something, either next to a person to serve them, or next to a chair/table/whatever in order to keep it clean and tidy. They’ll sometimes return to their quarters in the basement, and once I get schedules working, they’ll obviously retire there at night.



Prisoners

In jails (in nations with the Penitentiary ideology) we can now find prisoners in the cells, one prisoner per bed, milling around. As mentioned above, a small number might be someone of particular importance, but it’ll be up to the player to decipher who (if anyone) that might be. Prisoners will also be on release schedules (or at least, the lucky ones will be!) so they’ll be replaced whenever one moves out. I might add some kind of system whereby the different floors of each jail are for different types of prisoner – I’ll think about that going forward.



Archivists

Below the cathedrals of theocratic nations you’ll find a crypt… and if you explore that crypt, you might come across a room containing the most secret archives of that religion. Right now these are tables without books, as we don’t have book generation yet, but we do now have the archivist, and their guard(s), spawning. Here’s a gif of me finding an archivist in a half-flooded crypt in a city next to the ocean, and then having a look at the archivist, and looking at his religious garment (which you’ll note has grey patterning – as well as “default” robes and the “religious leader” robes with gold patterning I showed last week, I’ve added in a mid-tier version with grey patterning which will be given to people like archivists, abbots, inquisitors etc, who are higher-ranked than the average priest but not the leader(s) of the entire religion). The “Archivist” is depicted with a ‘V’, and the ‘g’s are of course the guards:



Once books are generating, archivists will be guarding the most important secrets of their religion, so the books behind them will be immensely important to find a way to read…

More Guards

Guards have also been added to several other areas which need them, such as Officers’ Quarters, and Mansions, and various other places, and the guards for now all shout the “Oy, shop that!” placeholder (along with their x/y coordinates) once you walk into their territory:



Monasteries

I’ve now temporarily (or permanently, we’ll see) removed the “Cultism” religious ideology and replaced it with, for the time being, the far more interesting “Monastic” option, and as such, we now have monasteries spawning. These are structured in the form of a religious building in the middle, a range of paths and vegetable gardens around it, a “loop” of monastic housing in a shape based on the civilization’s spatial preference, with several other important rooms (libraries, dining halls, abbot’s quarters, etc) spaced around the outside (or sometimes the inside). As examples, here we have a map grid containing a monastery (diamond), then the player standing outside one (cross), then inside from the player’s perspective (square) and an absolute perspective in the same monastery (circular) – note of course that all the wall in middle and edges of the fourth picture is not actually wall, since outside the monastery is where the vegetable garden is, but all the spare space in an “interior” map is just filled in with wall:









Next Release?

I find myself with a quandary. Everything to do with NPCs and their schedules, behaviour, appearance, etc, will be finished, at the latest, by the end of next month. However, one will not be able to interact with NPCs at this point: there will be no conversation system. At this point my intention is to continue working on this release until the conversation system is fully implemented and as deep/detailed as I want it to be, and thereby make this the largest (in terms of time invested) release URR has ever had, so looking to release in Oct/Nov. As the first gameplay release, this seems appropriate on some level – I want the first gameplay release to have a lot to do (or at least a lot of people to talk to!) rather than a little. On the other hand, I do strive (with mixed success) to release new versions as rapidly as I can. So: what does everyone think? Right now I feel I’d rather save up both NPCs and conversations for one massive first gameplay release, rather than make NPCs 0.8 and conversations 0.9, as I think a world full of NPCs you can’t interact with will feel rather peculiar… but I’d like to hear your thoughts.

Next Week

Next week… I have no idea. Something involving NPCs in some way. See you then!
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« Reply #670 on: August 30, 2015, 11:18:31 AM »

So what are your current state of mind regarding conversation? This might be one of the biggest differentiator so far as long as "state of the art" PGC go! I'm excited to see what you will come with!
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« Reply #671 on: August 31, 2015, 09:08:13 AM »

So what are your current state of mind regarding conversation? This might be one of the biggest differentiator so far as long as "state of the art" PGC go! I'm excited to see what you will come with!

My state of mind is: I have saved up all the resources you suggested (and many others besides) and I'll be reading them towards the end of next month once everything to do with NPCs/scheduling/pathfinding/etc is done. And I agree, it's a really awesome opportunity for some amazing PCG, I think, and I want to take *full* advantage of that... somehow.
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« Reply #672 on: August 31, 2015, 09:11:05 AM »

Great! :D keep going!
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« Reply #673 on: September 06, 2015, 08:38:57 AM »

Short-Term Replacing

Now, some stationary NPCs require two special things: they might need to be replaced in the short term (so there will always be a guard in any guard location, but at certain points in the day a new guard should come along and relieve the other guard, who would presumably be getting tired), and they might need replacing in the long term (e.g. gladiators who have died by now, or sailors lost at sea, etc – the game needs to replenish its volume of some of these NPCs when some are killed or cease to be important). Long-term replacing is not yet required (since NPCs, and the player, cannot yet die), but for short-term replacing, there is now a system in place to perform this task. When a guard spawns, the game sets a length of their watch, and when this period is up, a new guard is spawned as close to the guard as possible without the player being able to see the new guard spawn. The new guard then travels to the location of the old guard, and once they are on adjacent tiles, they switch places, and the old guard then moves out of the district and despawns, whilst the new guard becomes effectively identical to the old guard. I’ve also set up a system where there is a set “pool” of guards for each place, so perhaps you’ll be able to persuade certain guards to let you in if you know when their shift is, and their willingness to be bribed/persuaded/threatened/etc? Here, therefore, we have both the guards on a mint changing over, after which a priestess and her escort ramble past:





And the equivalent in a bank: they would not ordinarily all change over in this short a space of time, but for the sake of testing, it looks pretty neat:



Travel and Abstract Scheduling

Once I’d implemented this guard system, I then realized the game needed to track this wherever in the world the player was (or, at least, when the player next sets foot on that tile, work out which of the two guards should be on their shift, and spawn them). This seemed trivial, but it quickly became clear I was going to have to do other things before this. If I want the game to see how long it has been since the player last set foot on a map grid, then I have to know precisely how many turns/how much time moving on the travel map takes – and that, in turn, means programming that fully (currently there is just a placeholder of 20 “ticks” of the clock for each grid moved) and also making sure it cannot be exploited, and that moving on the travel map is never more/less efficient in terms of time spent than moving on the local maps (so, for instance, if on the world map you move north, north-west, then west, it should only count you a few turns as you move through the “corner” of the NW tile, since you wouldn’t walk to the middle before turning… but this rapidly makes the calculations very complex, as the calculations have to look at your previous two turns to figure out what would have been the most optimal way to move from Tile 1 -> Tile 2 -> Tile 3 if you’d been doing it on the local map instead of fast travelling). As such, I spent two days this week developing a detailed calculating system for working out the most optimal path the player could have taken between what I call two tiles and their outcome – the outcome being either pressing Enter to explore that tile, or moving onto a third tile – and thereby ensuring that, for long distance, fast travel is always equal to the most optimal path the player could possibly take on foot, i.e. the player should not be encouraged to spend real-world minutes slogging around the world on the local map, as it will never be faster (it will either be equally fast, or slower). So, basically, the system now tracks your previous two moves, and all the possibilities of those moves, and then when your third decision causes these possibilities to “collapse” (forgive the quantum terminology) the game calculates how long the most optimal way of carrying out that movement would all have taken, before then letting the player do any more interacting. This might sound strange, and it took a solid two days to code, but now it works perfectly and can handle all scenarios of the player’s fast-travel movement, and is always efficient, and allowed me to finally return to guards and ensure that the game knew which guard should be on patrol duty. In 0.9 therefore this system will be expanded to actually take account of terrain: moving on roads will be very fast if you have a mount, moving on desert will be extremely slow if you aren’t in a caravan, moving on mountains will be even slower unless one takes a mountain pass, and moving on ocean will, of course, be impossible unless one charters a ship.

Exploration

As part of the above, I decided to do a little bit of work on how the world map is going to look to explore -this is still not going to be the first release where the map starts mostly shrouded (though it seems very clear that that will be 0.9 early next year), but I wanted to implement it at the same time anyway. When you move you now uncover all the tiles in a circle around you (effectively a 5×5 grid centered on the player with the corners removed) but you can also see all mountains in a far larger area, to simulate the ability to, naturally, see things which are higher up than other things (profound, I know). In the future I’ll probably let you see a decent distance across the ocean, too, but I haven’t added that yet. Here are gif and image examples of how this looks, which I’m very happy with at the moment:





Finally…

Last but not least, many thanks to the extremely generous donations of the last couple of weeks; I really appreciate them! Over the coming week I’ll be working on completing the scheduling system for NPCs – day night cycles, going “home”, that kind of thing – and doing a lot of remaining edge cases and things like that, so once that’s all done, I might get working on one of the other clothing generators for this release, or keeping track of the “crucial” NPCs. We’ll see. See you then!
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« Reply #674 on: September 09, 2015, 04:31:30 AM »

That world map is pretty. But at first I thought the black city thing was a lake.
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« Reply #675 on: September 12, 2015, 03:28:07 AM »

That world map is pretty. But at first I thought the black city thing was a lake.

That would be a Great Lake, I think!

---

A rather short and snappy URRpdate this week, with hopefully something rather more substantial in a week's time:

http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2015/09/12/not-quite-the-shortest-update-ever-but-not-far-off/
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« Reply #676 on: September 18, 2015, 03:40:51 PM »

Just saw your presentation at GDC EU!  Awesome job!

While watching it I didn't actually realize it was the guy whose game I had been following on TIG until about halfway through the video, but then I saw a screenshot of the game and did a double take.

Great presentation, thanks for doing it!

Here is a link, for the interested:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022751/Handmade-Detail-in-a-Procedural
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« Reply #677 on: September 19, 2015, 03:12:15 AM »

Just saw your presentation at GDC EU!  Awesome job!

While watching it I didn't actually realize it was the guy whose game I had been following on TIG until about halfway through the video, but then I saw a screenshot of the game and did a double take.

Great presentation, thanks for doing it!

Here is a link, for the interested:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022751/Handmade-Detail-in-a-Procedural


Heh, thanks! Glad you liked it. I was there first and foremost not to specifically talk about URR, and I'm always wary of the whole "we won't invite back people who just advertise themselves" thing, so I actively played that down and only pondered my own work in the field for a part of the talk. I enjoyed GDC (my first time there) though as an academic and entirely freeware designer, rather than a games industry person (whether major or indie), I did feel that there probably wasn't as much there for me as for others. I'm sure I'll go again in the future, and give more URR-specific talks, but so few of the other talks had any relevance to me! Managing teams, developing in Unity, etc etc. Regardless: I certainly felt the talk went well, and I'm pleased you got something out of it Smiley.

Now for this week's update:

-----

I’ve just finished reading Q, a novel by the Italian literary collective Luther Blissett (that actually being the name of a footballer, a name they deemed to be inherently comic), which I absolutely loved. I recommend that everyone interested in URR give it a look since it looks at a lot of themes similar to those I’m trying to convey in the game, and so I will avoid spoilers, but there is one crucial point here (and that is mentioned in the book’s blurb, so it’s not a spoiler) – the narrator adopts a wide range of names and identities throughout the book. The book – set during the Reformation – emphasizes, albeit implicitly, the impossibility of ever being truly secure in knowledge of someone’s identity in an era where transport is limited, countries appear “massive” without aircraft and trains and cars to traverse them, and for all except the highest-ranking members of society there are no clear records kept on who is who, who lives where, and who is from where. Reading the book managed to segue quite nicely into some thinking I’ve been doing myself recently, but the book made this all the more certain in my head: URR has got to have a disguise mechanic.



Of course, we can still have a layer where the player can “earn” permissions to certain areas via transparent means. By which I mean – bribe someone to give you documentation to access Place X, or earn the loyalty of a religion so they’ll let you into Place Y, and so on – but surely we could take full advantage of the detail of the world’s faces/clothes/cultures/social norms/etc by implementing a disguise mechanic. I think this would have several components:

Appearance: add items for the temporary dyeing of hair and lightening/darkening of skin tone and temporary facial tattoos, and allow for adjusting hairstyle. Other NPCs will, in part, judge whether you are part of their nation based on how your face/hair look.

Clothing: the player adopting certain items of clothing lends other NPCs to assuming the player belongs to certain categories. This would be both clothing, but also things like rings, necklaces, types of armour worn, weapons sheathed, etc.

Speech: this is a really interesting one, and I suppose ties back into the ongoing question of “how is the conversation system going to work?”. It would be amazing if there could be some kind of system where the player can try to “fake” the forms of speech expected in that nation/culture/religion, and the better they can do this, the less suspicion they fall under. Perhaps the player can offer special greetings once the player has heard them once (“Greetings of the Divine King of the Snow!”) or generic greetings if not (“Greetings”), and the more “generic” comments the player makes, the more suspicious NPCs become, but the more the player knows what needs saying, the more they’ll fit in. Equally, once one becomes used to how people of a certain nation speak, perhaps one can select what “style” of speech to speak in a given conversation? That could be so interesting (in my current ongoing drafting of how conversations are going to work, I’m working on trying to define methods for generating different styles of speech).

So once you adopt the first two – dye your skin, and find the right clothes – you’ll be able to walk around in most nations undetected. But if you want to talk to anyone there, you’ll need to mirror their patterns of speech – and, equally, perhaps a particularly isolationist nation has a lot of guards on every major trade route, and you’ll be challenged by them even if you look like you belong to that nation? I think there are so many interesting potential gameplay experiences here: to some cultures your character presents themselves as they “truly” are, in other nations you entirely try to fake it, and maybe in other nations you play it by ear? This seems like another mechanic which would really take advantage of the detail in the world if we can make NPCs very observant about when something seems to be “off” when looking at/talking to the player.

Whether this will be 0.8 or 0.9 remains contingent on precisely how large 0.8 ends up being – is it just NPCs, or is it conversation as well? – but this is definitely going to turn up very soon, though it might be in a different release to conversation per se. If anyone has any other ideas for some more details on this mechanic, or perhaps how it could work in other contexts, or other parameters we could civilizations vary by: let me know!
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« Reply #678 on: September 19, 2015, 11:37:25 AM »

This has huge implication for social stealth! Imagine you want to go in a specific hi stake circle, but then you must infiltrate by learning the custom first:

- so you have many choice ask for intel to the right person (for example talk with servant of hi class family, either by bringing the topic of by letting them talk about what they think of their master and details about custom will sip through)
- Participate in low stake social events with commoner on the same social circle, going through an "initiation progression" that maybe automatically registered when entering, or is a skill to apply for explicit intent, for example a perception skills, which would some sort of strategy.

Think about real world interaction, say you meet someone, he is a stranger you just see him, if you see him enough he became known but not much. To get further you talk to him and you became closer but not so close, that's the kind of interaction you might have with for example the shopkeeper, talking was a "ritual" to pass to get closer and more "intimate". As the relation progress it stall again until you go through another "gating ritual" protocol such as offering a drink then inviting home, then to a party, etc ... but try to do it too soon and the ritual failed. So the interactions goes from formal to intimate, with formal interaction based on the generic social expectation dynamic. The key is to know the proper ritual in the proper context and social circle. That's where intel goes in, knowing those aspects and maybe the personal deviation. Ie the progression allow you to get the appropriate ritual and therefore merge with the social crowd in question, by looking for their values, maneer etc ...

This reinforce your main goal of information trailing.



Also I thought those recent events particularly resonate with your ambitions. Particularly on the security of knowledge.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/vanishing-canada-why-were-all-losers-in-ottawas-war-on-data/
and
http://newbooksinpoliticalscience.com/2015/01/19/frank-r-baumgartner-and-bryan-d-jones-the-politics-of-information-problem-definition-and-the-course-of-public-policy-in-america/ (I haven't read this book however but it was advise to me)

It doesn't seem that in the era of big data that the problem of "measure" is new, just faster and more more massive. Basically what isn't measured "don't exist", and the problem of relying on "measure sources" to try to understand reality.

Your game is in the past but it mght greatly resonate with the modern world by placing the stake on information.

On the same idea, taking cue on your "phenotype spread" there might be "information spread" that are diffused through "channel" (merchant, refugee, immigrant, postal service, spy, etc ...) into differing social group (government, population, aristocrat, poor etc ...) who have differing interpretation of version of the same story. And if the game has some form of dynamism, events can disrupt or change how the data flow from civilization to civilization. This don't have to be simulate per see, it can be inferred from time dependent seed that is used to query a "synchronicity state" of all civilizations to "simulate simulation" Tongue

This made the player in the middle of an information rich world where his mental model of the world is challenged by the multiplicity of interpretation and version of facts. Which in turn give strong gameplay purpose and high functionality to the conversation system (although the player don't have a strong sense of direction yet as of her roles). We had once a similar discssion in the design thread http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=29474.0

I hope I'm not too invasive with my analysis. It's a fascinating project that stimulate the mind.
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« Reply #679 on: September 21, 2015, 08:11:10 PM »

You should still have a "Cultism" religion, but you should make it a secret Wink
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