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998519 Posts in 39163 Topics- by 30574 Members - Latest Member: rosa89n20

April 19, 2014, 04:45:04 PM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralIGF Thread 2012
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Author Topic: IGF Thread 2012  (Read 83491 times)
Manuel Magalh„es
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« Reply #1050 on: February 23, 2012, 10:51:58 AM »

i wonder if there's an iphone game emulator that lets you play iphone games on windows -- that might work for igf judges who don't own an iphone who are assigned iphone games
There's only a simulator for OSX, and it doesn't allow to do certain actions like swiping.
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st33d
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« Reply #1051 on: February 23, 2012, 10:53:33 AM »

I specifically had an issue with increpare's ECT on the Mac. It had righty-only controls (due to a bug) and I couldn't translate the action of the flapper to the keys in my head.

I tried it on iPad and swiping to move it made much more sense. I could translate a hand movement to the flapper's direction, but not a key press.

(Though I still think I've come a cropper from not being able to manipulate the camera and move on the iPad.)

Given my own experience I would say that emulation would be a very poor experience of the real thing and would only lead to more controversy. Especially if the game was multi-touch.
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #1052 on: February 23, 2012, 10:54:51 AM »

I don't see a problem with not giving feedback. You can get feedback from a lot of places for free -- this is a competition, not a workshop -- and I don't think the feedback you would get from IGF judges is any more valuable in improving your game than the feedback you'd get from your players or the Feedback threads on this very forum. But there is a problem with a competition if all entries aren't judged fairly.
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« Reply #1053 on: February 23, 2012, 10:57:09 AM »

edit: it turns out bittrip runner actually *won* for visual art, it wasn't just a finalist. not much else to say about that. the monaco guy earlier was asking for examples of games which should not have won or games which should have won instead. this is a pretty easy one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7f7OZpuffM

some disagreements in winners are just matters of taste, and i can see 'well, i can see how some people would think that's good, even if it's not for me'. but not in this case, i can't even see how anyone would think the visuals of that game are even competent, let alone the best of all indie games in 2010
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Matthew
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« Reply #1054 on: February 23, 2012, 10:58:51 AM »

@mattheww - yeah but you also have to realize that people won't be as encouraged to work as hard to win a competition if they perceive the process of judging as non-objective or random

it's one thing to try to do 100 pushups in 30 days and fail and reach 80 instead, it's another thing to try to win a game-making contest, make the best game you can, fail to get mentioned, and not know why you failed. feedback gives the "feedback" to players so they can have some idea what they did wrong, which they would otherwise be clueless about

Well sure.  You should be entitled to a fair shake in any competition.  But the IGF is north of 500 games.  Everyone does the best they can, but keep in mind at that scale a tiny fraction of issues can create a dozen bad experiences.  That isn't to say things are perfect!  Of course things can and should be be improved.  A lot of suggestions in threads like this ignore resource limitations though ("add another judging round!", etc).

But I disagree on the nature of feedback.  There are two problems:

1) Goldilocks.  What is useful feedback?  "Too hard"?  "Cooldown time on upgraded weapon made boss fight harder than it could be"?  Feedback is a hard problem to solve in multi-page, interactive threads where the author is involved in the discussion.  Blind, one-time feedback is going to help?

2) The competition is among 500 games.  Most games aren't finalists because some other game edged them out.  That's hard to give feedback on.  This is often true in competitions in general (you may have perfect squat form, with excellent training/nutrition, but the guy next to you is just bigger or has been training for longer).
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Matthew Wegner
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« Reply #1055 on: February 23, 2012, 11:02:32 AM »

Why are we discussing feedback? Isn't the issue judges not playing their assigned games?
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« Reply #1056 on: February 23, 2012, 11:02:43 AM »

edit: it turns out bittrip runner actually *won* for visual art, it wasn't just a finalist. not much else to say about that. the monaco guy earlier was asking for examples of games which should not have won or games which should have won instead. this is a pretty easy one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7f7OZpuffM

some disagreements in winners are just matters of taste, and i can see 'well, i can see how some people would think that's good, even if it's not for me'. but not in this case, i can't even see how anyone would think the visuals of that game are even competent, let alone the best of all indie games in 2010

I quite enjoy Bit.Trip's visuals. It's not technically impressive, but they do an outstanding job of creating an immersive style that enhances the audio/visual experience. Subjectivity is a hell of a drug.
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #1057 on: February 23, 2012, 11:04:42 AM »

Also, it's retro!

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« Reply #1058 on: February 23, 2012, 11:05:44 AM »

@mattheww - useful feedback would just name what specifically a judge didn't like about a game, and why they thought other games in the igf were superior to it. it wouldn't take the form of a playtesting report

here's a made-up example:

'hi. your game, kingdom hearts, while fun and entertaining for kids, was just not as compelling to me as chrono trigger. i think it's because it was a mash-up of a bunch of different characters from different disney movies and square games, rather than its own entity, so it didn't feel self-contained. i had a hard time taking a game seriously, it felt like a fanfiction crossover rather than an original story. sorry, but i had to give the vote for 'best story' to chrono trigger instead.'
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« Reply #1059 on: February 23, 2012, 11:10:16 AM »


i repeat: a finalist for visual art

what are the judges seeing that i'm not?

I have same questions regarding many things, including Minecraft and thousands of Minecraft-clones that still sell.
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« Reply #1060 on: February 23, 2012, 11:12:26 AM »

Why are we discussing feedback? Isn't the issue judges not playing their assigned games?

separate topic; this is an all-purpose igf thread after all, multiple subtopics can be discussed at once in it. the criticism of the lack of feedback is an entirely different issue than judges not playing games, and much less serious of a problem, but still worth talking about, because if someone doesn't know why their game lost, or even why the other games won, they don't know what to improve or what to try harder at next time

i used bittrip runner as an example of a game that just looks plain ugly to me, as if they didn't try at all for the visuals, but which igf judges felt was the best game visually last year. without feedback explaining exactly why they thought that game had better visuals than all the other games, it's hard to know what lessons can be taken away from that game winning and so many other games that (to me) look visually far superior not even being nominated. i feel that feedback (or some write-up about why they chose that game for best visuals) could have clarified that issue

i mean, what's the lesson people are expected to take from that: make your game use symbolic low-poly 3d in a retro style with clashing colors? use squares for particles? make the screen confusing and hard to read?

here's an example of a game that i thought was very visually appealing but was not nominated for visual art in the igf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmSAQwbbig8 -- i can easily see that game winning for visuals, rather than bittrip runner. so it's not that its competition was all even worse
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #1061 on: February 23, 2012, 11:17:08 AM »

It just seemed a bit as if Matthew completely ignored the larger issue of judges not playing their assigned game (and the article that started this new round of discussion) and instead responded to an older topic that wasn't currently the center of discussion.
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« Reply #1062 on: February 23, 2012, 11:33:57 AM »

Couldn't judges be required to provide a public motivation for rating a game as they did? It would make them put more though and effort into the judging, and it would be easy to pick out bad judges who should not be allowed back.
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« Reply #1063 on: February 23, 2012, 11:34:59 AM »

I think the core issue is that people have come to expect good feedback and fair play from the IGF, whether it's realistic or not, and the IGF seems to encourage that belief (but not necessarily validate it in the end.)

Submitters should be outright told that their game may not get any written feedback and has a chance of not getting played if there are impediments to play, and then they can make an educated decision about whether to enter or not.

I think the whole process could do with a bit more openness, but extenuating circumstances will always occur.
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« Reply #1064 on: February 23, 2012, 11:37:59 AM »

I don't understand why entrants would expect to receive feedback? Because it was given up to 2010?
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