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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralIGF Thread 2012
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #1060 on: February 23, 2012, 12:14:49 PM »

as an aside, since judges are evaluating games in multiple categories, i kind of question that they can competently do that in 4 minutes. they have to be evaluating not only how *fun* the game is to play, but also its visuals, its audio, its novelty (nuovo award), and so on

You do realize the catalyst for the current discussion is a game that so completely invokes Gameboy aesthetics that it presents itself as a fictional port of a 1992 title, right?

the judge comments for this game show 3 judges putting an effort into trying that game (one of which sounds like the 50 minute playtime judge from the article). Hes lucky a judge played it for 50 minutes, if it really did get good later on, that judge would have made a comment about it alerting other judges to give it a chance, but thats not what happened.
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« Reply #1061 on: February 23, 2012, 12:34:03 PM »

This is not about Kale in Dinoland, and to dismiss all concerns because Kale wouldn't get nominated in the best of judging circumstance is to miss the point.

The point is that it is wrong that judges dismiss a game in 3 minutes. It is wrong that judges don't play games assigned to them.  Kale is just the one that happened to draw attention to the fact that this is going on, and as they stated themselves, they didn't expect to win.  They just wanted to be given a fair shake.

Andy wanted us to draw attention to games that should have won but didn't.  I mean, I can go through the list of the 500+ games, play them all, and let you know, but hey that's what the IGF is supposed to be fucking doing and apparently isn't.
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« Reply #1062 on: February 23, 2012, 12:51:23 PM »

No, I don't want you to go through and play them all.  But it's a good sign that this argument is about a bunch of strawmen since people can't seem to argue what's wrong with the actual, specific results.  Surely if the IGF is so broken you can come up with a few specifics that we can argue about on the merits of the games.

Paul, thank you for bringing up Bit.Trip.  But disagreeing with Bit.Trip winning is based on personal preference, not how much time was given to the games.  I wasn't on the art jury, so I can't say what went into the selection process.  I do think there's a very valid argument over whether the new IGF jury system creates a bias for games that are well known (I believe it does), though I can't say whether that helped this particular game -- I haven't played it.

That said, I get the feeling that Paul is basing his opinion on THE SCREENSHOTS OF THE GAME.  Surely this is more than a bit hypocritical...  Correct me if I'm wrong.
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« Reply #1063 on: February 23, 2012, 01:05:24 PM »

And by the way, just to reiterate: EVERYONE agrees (including and especially the people that are close to the IGF) that judges that don't put in the required time to evaluate games suck.  It's a problem that the IGF organizers constantly and actively battle.
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« Reply #1064 on: February 23, 2012, 01:18:47 PM »

This is not about Kale in Dinoland, and to dismiss all concerns because Kale wouldn't get nominated in the best of judging circumstance is to miss the point.

The point is that it is wrong that judges dismiss a game in 3 minutes. It is wrong that judges don't play games assigned to them.  Kale is just the one that happened to draw attention to the fact that this is going on, and as they stated themselves, they didn't expect to win.  They just wanted to be given a fair shake.

Andy wanted us to draw attention to games that should have won but didn't.  I mean, I can go through the list of the 500+ games, play them all, and let you know, but hey that's what the IGF is supposed to be fucking doing and apparently isn't.

I think it's important to draw out specifics here.  Main competition judges are asked to nominate games for jury scrutiny; there is a single checkbox for each prize category (and a checkbox for "I played this and don't want to check anything").

I think there are plenty of games where I can read the description, watch their video, and play the game for 5 minutes and feel entirely comfortable checking a box that says "I think there might be something special here".  This is especially true for games that present a down-the-line invocation of a genre, like Kale, which is why I brought it up specifically.

I don't think this true for all games, certainly, and it's an easy statement that more time should be spent on judging.  This is true!  I'd rather see more accurate judging than more numbers, though.  Draconian "YOU MUST JUDGE YOUR LIST" measures will just get judges phoning in scores.  I would much, much rather judges ignore their work if they get busy, because it's easy to spot games with a low number of scores and make sure they're looked at.
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Matthew Wegner
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #1065 on: February 23, 2012, 01:55:43 PM »

I just brought up a specific example because everyone else seems to be bringing up the hypothetical "amazing overlooked game with a less than stellar intro" scenario, without ever providing an example of an actual game entered into the IGF that fits this description.
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deathtotheweird
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« Reply #1066 on: February 23, 2012, 02:17:35 PM »

http://www.unwinnable.com/2012/02/23/the-igf-is-just-fine-youre-the-problem/

this is the kind of judges IGF have?

a concerned independent developer posts about his experience with judges not playing his game. this angry prick of a judge then goes off an some rant about technical issues and then ends the post with a nice "fuck you".

~~~~~~indie games~~~~~~
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« Reply #1067 on: February 23, 2012, 02:28:14 PM »

oh you guys. I mean really. You guys aren't very independent.


I BOUGHT INTO A SYSTEM THAT I THOUGHT WOULD PROTECT ME AND PROVIDE WEALTH FOR MY FAMILY AND YOU F'D ME OVER...

I BOUGHT INTO A SYSTEM

I BOUGHT

INTO

A SYSTEM



y'all should have seen it coming.


 signed,



(i'm kind of kidding)
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #1068 on: February 23, 2012, 02:33:30 PM »

Wow. With friends like that, the IGF truly doesn't need enemies. Facepalm
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« Reply #1069 on: February 23, 2012, 02:40:32 PM »

Oh god, that's just shocking :/
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st33d
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« Reply #1070 on: February 23, 2012, 02:48:03 PM »

a concerned independent developer posts about his experience with judges not playing his game.

To be fair, he abused knowledge he shouldn't have had and according to one of the comments on his post he harassed the judges assigned. Then instead of addressing the organisation - the problem, he addresses the internet. Bit of a dick, no? (And his game has a virtual joystick  No No NO) I also like how his blog css has changed to something less eye-bleeding.

So I doubt it's as clear cut as it seems.

I also don't think the judges are going to get any more responsible if the amount of entries keeps going up.

It's like charity fatigue living in a city. You just end up vilifying all the beggars and collectors because there's thousands of the buggers.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #1071 on: February 23, 2012, 02:49:29 PM »

That said, I get the feeling that Paul is basing his opinion on THE SCREENSHOTS OF THE GAME.  Surely this is more than a bit hypocritical...  Correct me if I'm wrong.

i linked to the game's trailer as well

i also own the game
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 03:00:33 PM by Paul Eres » Logged

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« Reply #1072 on: February 23, 2012, 02:52:06 PM »

Ok, so Chrome just crashed and threw out about 1200 words and I'm too lazy to retype it all. I'm just going to hit the highlights.

Straw man time:
Obama v McCain 2008 US Prez election.  Hypothetically, someone in Massachusetts hacks a voting machine so that it converts 1000 votes from Obama to McCain.  Obama still wins MA by ~800,000 votes.  That doesn't make the hacking ok.

Lesson time:
Just because the end results might not change, doesn't make the system ok.  If the system is broken (and I think that the Kale fiasco shows it is, but obviously others disagree), then the system should be fixed.  The end results don't change that.



http://www.unwinnable.com/2012/02/23/the-igf-is-just-fine-youre-the-problem/
This is the most abhorrent thing to be written about the situation.
Want to know how I found out about it?
Brandon retweeted it.
...
because that really helps the dialogue.  Roll Eyes

Plea to the IGF:
Stop doubling down. This mantra of "the system works. the system works. THE SYSTEM WORKS." isn't helping.  At best it makes you appear out of touch with people's concerns. At worst it makes you appear callous and unfeeling.  The best thing you guys could do right now would be to say "Sorry. We fucked up.  We thought our judging system was adequate, but obviously there are problems that need to be fixed.  We hope that this never happens again."  
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #1073 on: February 23, 2012, 02:53:00 PM »

You do realize the catalyst for the current discussion is a game that so completely invokes Gameboy aesthetics that it presents itself as a fictional port of a 1992 title, right?

considering i've played game boy games with both better art and better sound than many of the igf visual and audio category winners, i'm not sure why that matters? unless it's just discrimination against the gameboy or something

but yeah, like was said above, this isn't about that particular game. it's about that game and all the hundreds of other games which were also only played for five minutes or less (many of which were mentioned in the comments to that one article)
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phubans
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« Reply #1074 on: February 23, 2012, 02:53:20 PM »

http://www.unwinnable.com/2012/02/23/the-igf-is-just-fine-youre-the-problem/

this is the kind of judges IGF have?

a concerned independent developer posts about his experience with judges not playing his game. this angry prick of a judge then goes off an some rant about technical issues and then ends the post with a nice "fuck you".

~~~~~~indie games~~~~~~

Wow, I'm speechless. This is beyond immature, classless, and disgusting. There are no words. I really hope there is a future alternative for indie games that doesn't involve [people who seem undesirable] holding all the reigns. [I disagree with this].

EDITED for using less "colorful" words to describe people and situations when I'm angry. I am angry, though. I feel this is messed up. It's outrageous enough when a girl is raped, but to say she was raped because it was her fault is terrible.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 03:12:23 PM by phubans » Logged

ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #1075 on: February 23, 2012, 02:57:52 PM »

But disagreeing with Bit.Trip winning is based on personal preference, not how much time was given to the games.

that's not necessarily true. if, for example, the aforementioned alternative, dust: an elysian tale, was only played for 5 minutes, or not played at all, and not nominated for visuals, it would then have been overlooked for the visual category exactly because of how much time was given to games. the same is true for any other game with great visuals which wasn't played

besides, this is exactly why i feel your desire for examples of what games people felt should have won instead of other games is besides the point: because it always is going to come down to different tastes. but i suspect that at least in *most* people's tastes, an elysian tale looks like it has more impressive visuals than bittrip runner
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 03:07:52 PM by Paul Eres » Logged

Dragonmaw
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« Reply #1076 on: February 23, 2012, 03:00:05 PM »

i like how every year the igf thread turns into this
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« Reply #1077 on: February 23, 2012, 03:07:34 PM »

do you really? because I kind of am enjoying this.
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« Reply #1078 on: February 23, 2012, 03:19:43 PM »


Many judges DID do this sort of thing.

well maybe make it "all of them" instead of many!! pwned.... B)
but yeah I don't think it would be those judges we are talking about, then
"this guy did something wrong, he should've done X!" "well this other guy DID do X" "thats a OTHER GUY"
wow double pwned....... BB)

Regarding money!  When you enter a competition--any competition--your money goes towards:

1) Running the event

2) Shit the finalists win

you'd sort of expect the "running the event" part to include "making sure judges judge all games"? "whoops guys we got all the games but we forgot the judging!!! we'll pick a winner at random ok?"


wowww what a piece of shit!!
also why does litterally all of the judges speak as if their time was reaaally limited? if that's such a huge issue couldn't they give the judges more time?? have they been told to tell the public that they are human beings and have other things to balance? is it some kind of indirect snipe HHHEH WE DONT HAVE AS MUCH FREE TIME AS YOU _NERDS_ WE HAVE A LIFE
probably not that's stupid!!! but maybe give the judges more time??? and get judges that dont have a million things to do!! "hello you will have to review 20 games and it would be cool if you spent a few ten minutes on each!! thats a lot of time ok????"

i mean its the main excuse that comes up but even then its not really a valid one
the other one is "it didnt work" and that sounds like feedback that is pretty fast to send. it didnt work sry! on windows 7 64
WOW 30 seconds of my time omg but nope im too busy for that... too busy..........

you gotta understand though, the judges that didnt play the games are the problem, but the ones that didnt are cool!!! I mean I know the communication is the most amiable but the problem is presented there, and the only responses are "maybe it didnt work" and "not enough time!! WE ARE HUMANS" well guess what
im a monster, hire me B)
no but maybe give judges more time next year?? and get kind judges, dont hire mean ones those suck.. and make sure they play their assigned games?
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #1079 on: February 23, 2012, 03:28:14 PM »

monster king that sounds reasonable you have to realize by now that humans are not like monsters

also, phubans, did you read the part in the comments where she was like 'if a judge doesn't even play your game it's your fault, because the game looked so bad they didn't even need to play it' -- hahah

and that brandonnn retweeted it shows that he sort of considers that judge a great judge, and she'll be back next year for more of the same
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