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[deathtotheweird]

why shouldn't we?

you said it best yourself:

4 years ago, our first 30 days of work got us an art award.
it launched our careers and we might not be where we are today without that award.

how can the other submissions compete with that kind of lead? sure it's not impossible and others can beat out your game despite the advantage, but it's still a hell of a damn good advantage compared to others who didn't win the igf before. you had your chance in the spotlight, you got your recognition. leave your ego at home and let others have a shot. don't be a dick.

[fish]

maybe not a "traditional" publisher role but they still perform the role of publisher. they market and advertise the games, and you have to sign a contract and presumably you also get paid more if you make your game xbla exclusive. and they do certainly have editing control since your game has to meet their standards in regards to control schemes and user interface elements and such (got that from the introversion post about the xbla process)

not at all.
technically, *every* XBLA game is published by microsoft.
in that they put it on their service.

technically, fez is also self-published.
we never got paid anything for doing the game on XBLA.
microsoft has lended us devkits and other services, that we are eventually to pay them back for once the game starts making money.
you're not handed a big burlap sack of cash when you get sign with XBLA.
you basically just get permission to release on that platform.

but we're self-publishing.
that means we do our own promotion any way we want.
polytron owns the IP.

[deathtotheweird]

that wasn't my argument I was just responding to someone. I think it's a weak argument and I'll stick to my "fez had an unfair advantage by winning a prior igf award" argument.

[fish]

i think we're actually at a severe disadvantage, having actually won a previous award, no?
isn't everybody's first reaction that we shouldn't even be allowed to enter?

despite all that, i think the game still stands a chance.
so we're entering it.

 

[deathtotheweird]

I should only hope so, but I sincerely doubt it. It rests entirely on the jurors'/judges' shoulders.

and of course your game has a chance, it has benefited from 4 years of development all thanks to the IGF.

how much recognition do you need to fill that hole that is the bottomless pit of your ego?

[MattG]

not entering. You can decide if Sketchbrawlers is awesome to you by yourself.

It seems just like the  games press, they go gaga over bay area 2d and FPS and ignore massive innovation in interactivity.

I once got a nomination for sound but who fucking cares NOBODY

[Zaphos]

Based on edmund's story about meat boy, it did sound like the judges have been harder on already-successful people/games.

Also interesting, statement from brandonnn on twitter:

Dear everyone: the #IGF judges & jurors are a far better arbiter of who should/n't win yearly awards than the submission form.

technically, *every* XBLA game is published by microsoft.
in that they put it on their service.

technically, fez is also self-published.
[details]

Yeah, this definitely sounds like self-publishing to me.  Thanks for the explanation

[Zaphos]

ignore massive innovation in interactivity.

any specific examples?  (not doubting you but I'd like to see the innovations)

[MattG]

ignore massive innovation in interactivity.

any specific examples?  (not doubting you but I'd like to see the innovations)

just my opinion from following it previous years, but eh letting people enter that already won with games from previous events is whack, and letting in unfinished games is whack too IMO.

Id like to see ONLY real games that have been made independently. Not demo shoppers looking for a deal. ITs not even a fair fight.

its like two teams, exact same resources. One makes a whole game with their time and budget, but the team who only makes one level wins. Of course the team that focused on one level looks way better than another team that made a whokle working game with UI manual etc.

But the team that made a real game is far superior for completing a full product vs a team with nothing but a demo. paul eres deserves to win with a final product thats slightly less polished than a dev with one level all shined up.

[Hangedman]

I think the IGF should support unfinished games. Because they'll really have to show some promise to beat out polished finished games. And again, that's the idea, isn't it?

[RichMakeGame!]

If the rules allow it, then it's fair game to do it. I agree, at no point should you sit back and go 'ok well that's enough, lets cross our fingers now'

Since I'm entering btw, I would prefer as little competition as possible! but I still think it's fine because I would probably do the same thing (ok well I wouldn't spend that long on a game ) but still.

[esc]

I think the IGF should support unfinished games. Because they'll really have to show some promise to beat out polished finished games. And again, that's the idea, isn't it?

What seems to be a recurring point of contention is whether or not the IGF should represent nobody's with their prototypes, acting more as a scholarship type deal, more something like the Oscars or Sundance, somewhere in between or maybe something else.

Based on what people think IGF should be more or less like, people get angry about certain winners, entrants, categories and prizes even.

The IGF seems to stir the greatest debates because, although many different award shows and festivals/exposes have received recognition and public awareness, it seems to be perceived as having the most legitimacy and/or public awareness, making whoever wins have that much greater of a jumpstart compared to those left in the dust.

[deathtotheweird]

sure it's fair game since it's not technically in the rule-book but I still think it's against the spirit of the IGF to re-enter a game.

UBM TechWeb (producer of Game Developer magazine, Gamasutra.com, and the Game Developers Conference) established the Independent Games Festival in 1998 to encourage innovation in game development and to recognize the best independent game developers.

How is giving Fez another award encouraging innovation? They were already recognized, but Phil Fish's head is so big he wants it again.

We wanted to create a similar event to Sundance for independent game developers

and Sundance's goal:

Through its programs, the Institute seeks to discover, support, and inspire independent film and theatre artists from the United States and around the world, and to introduce audiences to their new work.

don't you see the contradiction in allowing the re-entry of Fez based on this information?

[fish]

and to recognize the best independent game developers.

suck my dick, allen.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@esc - yeah i think the igf started with good intentions (to help out unknown games and give them exposure) but it eventually became so powerful that it now has the opposite effect: if a game isn't an igf winner or at least finalist everyone ignores it (the games press, steam, and so on)

a comparison could be made with the sundance film festival in that regard; how many indie movies which were not sundance winners or finalists have you watched, or even heard of? so is sundance actually "revealing" people like robert rodriguez and quintin tarntino and movies like the blair witch project to the world, or preventing others like them (perhaps equally as good) from getting a foothold, by acting as a controlled filter?

in an attempt to address this sundance in 2010 added a new category for extremely low budget films, where there is a limit on the budget. perhaps igf could consider doing the same, because it seems that each year (for the past few years) the winners are dominated by "semi-pro" dev teams and games (like with the game limbo) rather than people who work out of their bedroom (as opposed to offices)

tl;dr: igf used to be "a way to make it big" and now it's "the only way to make it big" which is rightfully upsetting to devs who don't win

[Eclipse]

Fez is allowed to enter, and Phil is only doing something he *can*. I see no difference from Minecraft and Notch latest year.

On the other hand, is it the best way to behave? Of course not. I would have liked to hear something on the lines of "we're already successful developers and our game got a lot of exposure these years, we can leave the IGF spotlight to others, good but unfortunate developers" both from Notch and Fish. But that's not the case because they're just not that humble and passionate about the indie community and maybe they're even selfish\arrogant guys.

Still it's in their right to do so and complaining is sadly a bit pointless. I really hope the judges leave the spotlight for new games, but as Minecraft won the past edition I'm quite confident Fez can won this one as well.

I'm not going to buy Fez because it's on xbox, but I'm sure it's a great game, good luck to everybody joining this year, you got a mammoth already sitting on the first place to move.


In other news, I root for Edmund if he enters with Isaac, that game is a fucking drug

[Eclipse]

and to recognize the best independent game developers.

suck my dick, allen.

you're really being a total shithead here dude, what are you, two years old?
This way you'll just manage to piss people off even more

[fish]

how are we successful developers if we haven't shipped our first game?
notch made tens of millions.
i've only accrued debt over the last 5 years.  
by what metric are we successful enough?

[deathtotheweird]

you are successful in the fact that nearly every one who pays attention to indie games (and given the press you received from mainstream media sites, many many others as well) knows what Fez is.

success does not equate to money and money alone. you have succeeded elsewhere and in due time you'll make your money and be 'successful' by your standards. all because of the IGF award YOU ALREADY WON.

if you had not won the IGF and received all that attention do you think many people, outside of these small forums, would give a fuck about Fez? I seriously doubt it.

[Zaphos]

In other news, I root for Edmund if he enters with Isaac, that game is a fucking drug

iirc Edmund said he isn't entering IGF any more after meat boy, because it's too stressful and there is a stigma/outcry/bias/whatever against previous winners entering ever again.