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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralIGF Thread 2012
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moi
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« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2011, 02:56:39 PM »

fez is not a game, it's a whole carreer
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« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2011, 02:57:36 PM »

andy moore's rant and the subsequent discussion might be relevant to some here - it differs in some essentials (prior public release, for instance, and wasn't entered to that festival prior)  (it should be said that I have no reason to believe he's talking about IGF here - I have no idea ).

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I pursue Iterative Video Game Development. One of my games was rejected for a festival's inclusion because it was "too close to a previous version".

I understand that if I don't like the judging criteria, I can go ahead and make my own festival.

I am still pissed off. Games should be judged on their own merits, not on how they stack up to an earlier release. I feel like I'm being punished because I chose an iterative, public path, instead of doing the standard grind (spending two years polishing and iterating privately and pursuing funding and such).

I guess other games get away with it because they put "beta" all over their websites?
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Belimoth
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« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2011, 03:00:25 PM »

I think people should just keep their games in pre-release forever so they can keep entering them in contests. That is the kind of world I want to live in.
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increpare
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« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2011, 03:01:22 PM »

To reiterate : try keep it constructive, people.
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deathtotheweird
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« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2011, 03:02:01 PM »

I agree, Minecraft has received numerous patches and is a much much better game than the unfinished version they submitted last year.

The game is more finished now, Notch should submit it again so it gets it's fair share of attention. Because clearly it hasn't gotten enough. Right Phil?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2011, 03:04:44 PM »

how are we successful developers if we haven't shipped our first game?
notch made tens of millions.
i've only accrued debt over the last 5 years.  
by what metric are we successful enough?

that's just because you never got a game out. I'm pretty sure Fez will be widely covered by every gaming portal out there, kotaku in first row, like it already was for every new piece of gameplay\trailer.
And you'll get a distribution deal on steam for a pc version in a blink of an eye just mailing valve, how is that not being successful?
I'm not against you, it's not like you're going against any rule, but goddamn it at least try to be a little less a dickhead when answering to other developers, you talked shit against both Tom Sennett and Anna Anthropy only because they have a different opinion of what is fair or not

I think people should just keep their games in pre-release forever so they can keep entering them in contests. That is the kind of world I want to live in.

you just made me spit my drink :D
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 03:11:29 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Matthew
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« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2011, 03:14:42 PM »

RE:  "Dominance" of IGF by big teams

This is a made-up viewpoint.  Look at the year where Limbo won something:  http://www.igf.com/2010finalistswinners.html .  I see Monaco taking grand prize, Closure taking audio, Tuning taking Nuovo.  Audience Award inevitably goes to the largest audience, which tends to be big, and Max & the Magic Marker was a smallish/mid-size team.  That seems awfully split down the middle to me.

Last year looks just the same: http://www.igf.com/02finalists.html .  Half of those winners are tiny.

Honestly, you should question how much of, "IGF is being overrun by big mean successful people" is simply a matter of your identity and your story.  It's a lot easier to avoid cognitive dissonance when you believe the odds are against you (when maybe, just maybe, your work just isn't as good as it could be yet, and you should go back to working hard and creating things to improve your craft and the medium at large).


RE: Stealing the Spotlight

There's a reason there are multiple finalists in multiple categories.  FEZ could be a finalist in every category, but it can't be all five finalists in all categories.  It's a terrible excuse and a distraction from creation.  Go back to work instead of worrying about impossible scenarios where your hopes and dreams are somehow doomed because somebody else made something great.  Make something great yourself and things will turn out OK, I promise.
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« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2011, 03:15:07 PM »

but goddamn it at least try to be a little less a dickhead when answering to other developers, you talked shit [etc]
Nooo phil fish must continue talking shit on twitter because it amuses me.
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andy wolff
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« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2011, 03:16:50 PM »

Isn't the IGF a competition? No fair competition should refuse competitors just because they're more likely to win, or because they have put more work into their entry than others might have. That would be silly. That's certainly not the way life works anywhere else. Except some instances of organized crime.

If a game deserves to win, I hope it will. Even if some people have heard of its creators.

That said, I was kind of sickened to see Minecraft win so many time last year. They should have at least given the money to someone who needed it. But to me, Fez is entirely different
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deathtotheweird
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« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2011, 03:20:37 PM »

Quote
Honestly, you should question how much of, "IGF is being overrun by big mean successful people" is simply a matter of your identity and your story.  It's a lot easier to avoid cognitive dissonance when you believe the odds are against you (when maybe, just maybe, your work just isn't as good as it could be yet, and you should go back to working hard and creating things to improve your craft and the medium at large).

I'm speaking from an outsider's view-point. I don't have a game that I would enter IGF but I see many games that are great and better than Fez but I can't help but feel like Fez has a huge advantage on them given the resources and publicity they were able to acquire thanks to winning an IGF award. Hopefully this is all imagined and the judges won't be swayed by all the hype Fez has received since already winning the IGF award. But I doubt it.

and Andy, Fez already won. That's the point. Should past winners be allowed to re-enter despite the fact that due to winning _already_ they were able to put more work into their game?
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« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2011, 03:21:37 PM »

Honestly, this feels as if a movie resubmitted it's self to the oscars/emmys/etc twice in different years. For example, if George Lucas submitted Star Wars IV every time a new 'enhanced' version came out. Sure it's 'new' and it's good because the original was good, but is it really a great idea?
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2011, 03:24:29 PM »

speaking of that, i think people are assuming that if fez wins it will take a spot of another indie game that is unknown and more deserving, but if it wins it will just as likely be taking the spot of a big-budget "indie" game with a publishing contract -- i'd rather see fez win than see some other indie game with a 3 million dollar budget win. that's part of why i don't mind that fez is entering

Look at the year where Limbo won something:  http://www.igf.com/2010finalistswinners.html .  I see Monaco taking grand prize, Closure taking audio, Tuning taking Nuovo.  Audience Award inevitably goes to the largest audience, which tends to be big, and Max & the Magic Marker was a smallish/mid-size team.  That seems awfully split down the middle to me.

Last year looks just the same: http://www.igf.com/02finalists.html .  Half of those winners are tiny.

i don't really see how winners being (by your own estimate) "split down the middle" between office indie games with hundred-thousand or million dollar budgets and low-budget bedroom indie games is a good thing for an indie game contest. i don't disagree with your estimate of the ratio at all, just with your evaluation that that is the right place for it to be at, since it means that half of its winners every year do not need the fame and exposure of the prize all that much
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« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2011, 03:24:58 PM »

I'm speaking from an outsider's view-point. I don't have a game that I would enter IGF but I see many games that are great and better than Fez but I can't help but feel like Fez has a huge advantage on them given the resources and publicity they were able to acquire thanks to winning an IGF award. Hopefully this is all imagined and the judges won't be swayed by all the hype Fez has received since already winning the IGF award. But I doubt it.

and Andy, Fez already won. That's the point. Should past winners be allowed to re-enter despite the fact that due to winning _already_ they were able to put more work into their game?

Their publicity advantage would certainly help if they became a finalist, because the Audience Award is scored via public voting.  I don't see how being an IGF finalist years ago confers advantages to better art/audio/game design/etc, though.
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« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2011, 03:26:01 PM »

i don't really see how winners being (by your own estimate) "split down the middle" between office indie games with hundred-thousand or million dollar budgets and low-budget bedroom indie games is a good thing for an indie game contest. i don't disagree with your estimate of the ratio at all, just with your evaluation that that is the right place for it to be at, since it means that half of its winners every year do not need the fame and exposure of the prize all that much

The IGF is not a scholarship.
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Matthew Wegner
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« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2011, 03:27:23 PM »

and Andy, Fez already won. That's the point. Should past winners be allowed to re-enter despite the fact that due to winning _already_ they were able to put more work into their game?

Yeah. If they've still put the work in since they last won, I think they should. If they enter the same game that won last time  without having improved it at all, they're assholes who should be laughed out of the competition. But that's not what's happening here

Making it easy to be successful would be worse than rewarding those who are doing what they need to be. There are a lot of people who deserve a lot more recognition, but I don't think it's helping anyone to hate on random people. It would probably be more productive to do something about it
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« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2011, 03:33:22 PM »

I think the IGF's manifesto needs to be made clearer. Is it a showcase for those who deserve attention but can't get themselves noticed, or is it a showcase of the biggest, flashiest, and best that indie games has to offer?  It used to be the former, but which is it now?
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2011, 03:34:23 PM »

The IGF is not a scholarship.

this topic was already discussed last year and earlier in this thread -- basically the idea of igf being a place to give recognition to games that need recognition is that the igf site says it is, and that the site says it models itself after sundance, which explicitly is intended for that purpose

of course it also says it's intended to award the best indie games each year, and (at least, i think) you've in the past interpreted that line to overrule everything else or to mean that the other things it says don't matter or aren't true

in any case, as i suggested earlier, a category for low budget games, similar to the NEXT category at sundance would go a long ways into fixing this problem (and even if you don't see it as a problem, a lot of the people here do), so i hope that you and the other igf organizers consider adding such a category one day
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« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2011, 03:39:46 PM »

in any case, as i suggested earlier, a category for low budget games

budget has almost nothing to do with the quality of a game
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deathtotheweird
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« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2011, 03:39:55 PM »

I think the IGF's manifesto needs to be made clearer. Is it a showcase for those who deserve attention but can't get themselves noticed, or is it a showcase of the biggest, flashiest, and best that indie games has to offer?  It used to be the former, but which is it now?

it feels like it's trying to be a mixture of both while failing at the former and succeeding in the latter. since it obviously can't do both, it's only logical to assume that the biggest and flashiest indie games will win over the lower budget or lesser known games.
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Matthew
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« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2011, 03:40:33 PM »

Yes, Sundance is a "festival of discovery", but there are also some questionably-nefarious rules in place to enforce this mission.  For instance, your film must debut there to be eligible for most awards:

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As outlined in Item #3 above, your feature-length film is ineligible for many of our Festival Program
Categories if a prior “public theatrical screening” has occurred or will occur before January 19th, 2012.

http://www.sundance.org/pdf/film-events/Submissions_FAQ.pdf
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Matthew Wegner
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