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[Matthew]

matthew

that's essentially bullshit, but it makes the entire stated purpose of the igf bullshit too and i hope you can just admit it so we can all move on

yes perhaps 2010's motorcycle game which was itself a clone of nintendo games with literally nothing added except shitty 3d got nominated because it was JUST SO GOOD (this is a lie)


if you genuinely believe that, say, a text adventure could EVER be nominated if it wasn't by an already known developer (and if, were it to be, it might ever NOT be nominated) then you're mad.

Wait, which thing specifically?  I'm just saying expectation and such influence your entry to the point where having a shit video, text, or first hour play experience will hurt you...

[Glaiel-Gamer]

basically, it seems that there is no system in the igf to recognize the value of niche games. games which 10% of people love and 90% of people hate can be just as well-made, working-as-intended, and take as much skill and dedication as games which 90% of people love and 10% of people hate

There's games in genres I typically hate that still manage to appeal to me (/ everyone else who plays them). I hate text adventures, yet choice of broadsides was really good. I hate point and click adventures, but I loved sworcery. Just cause something is made in a niche genre doesn't mean it can't still appeal to a wide audience

[Paul Eres]

basically, it seems that there is no system in the igf to recognize the value of niche games. games which 10% of people love and 90% of people hate can be just as well-made, working-as-intended, and take as much skill and dedication as games which 90% of people love and 10% of people hate

There's games in genres I typically hate that still manage to appeal to me (/ everyone else who plays them). I hate text adventures, yet choice of broadsides was really good. I hate point and click adventures, but I loved sworcery. Just cause something is made in a niche genre doesn't mean it can't still appeal to a wide audience

i agree with that, but that doesn't really contradict what i've said. there are certainly games which are in niche genres which can appeal to people outside of that niche. but those games which do that are *not* necessarily better than games in niche genres which do not appeal to people outside of that niche

[AndySchatz]

It's worth keeping in mind that the flavor of the IGF is defined by the judges every year.  While many judges believe it is the "best" indie games, others have different philosophies.  Even people who agree will have differing perspectives on "best".  So it's healthy to have a lively discussion on the subject, but it's also healthy to recognize that no one will (or should) be happy with all of the results, all of the time, because the IGF represents a variety of value systems.

The reasons that Joe Danger was nominated are not the same reasons that spurred the nominations of Star Guard or Trauma or JS Joust, or Fez, or Darwinia or any other nomination.

[PHeMoX]

It's worth keeping in mind that the flavor of the IGF is defined by the judges every year.  While many judges believe it is the "best" indie games, others have different philosophies.  Even people who agree will have differing perspectives on "best".  So it's healthy to have a lively discussion on the subject, but it's also healthy to recognize that no one will (or should) be happy with all of the results, all of the time, because the IGF represents a variety of value systems.

The reasons that Joe Danger was nominated are not the same reasons that spurred the nominations of Star Guard or Trauma or JS Joust, or Fez, or Darwinia or any other nomination.

I totally agree. I don't have anything against the previous judges and I really think they did do a great job, but a lot comes down to personal taste. I'm sure there have been a good couple of games I would have probably judged quite differently myself, if it ever were up to me. But that doesn't mean the judges did a bad job.

I haven't read the whole thread so I'm sorry if this has already become a dead horse, but if there's no rule against submitting a certain game multiple times then I don't see a problem doing so. Different judges will judge differently anyway.  

"The IGF isn't what I personally think it should be, my subjective opinion is more correct than your subjective opinion, therefore the IGF is corrupt, broken, and/or wrong."

Summarizing for anyone just coming into this thread.

derp.

Yeah, funny ain't it?  I wonder on what kind of authority people think their subjective opinion is more correct though.

[Christian Knudsen]

so i think it'd be preferable to have some system in place which recognizes niche games. this is probably not the igf's role however, an alternative set of awards which recognize niche games (having a lot of winners in a lot of small categories, like "best setting" and "best villain") might be best

I think a problem with such a system is that most people won't care. People seem to care about the IGF because it's a somewhat prestigious award with only a few categories and winners. An award with a lot of categories and a lot of winners won't have the same impact. How will it be different from any other list of "neat games you should play"? I also fear something like that will end up either being the MTV Movie Awards to the Academy Awards (who cares about a movie winning "best kiss"?), or the Scientific & Technical Awards of the Academy Awards (only mentioned as an aside because of a lack of prestige and being too niche).

[Chris Pavia]

"The IGF isn't what I personally think it should be, my subjective opinion is more correct than your subjective opinion, therefore the IGF is corrupt, broken, and/or wrong."

Summarizing for anyone just coming into this thread.

derp.

Yeah, funny ain't it?  I wonder on what kind of authority people think their subjective opinion is more correct though.

I think when someone spends so much time playing/talking about/developing indie games its easy to get tunnel vision, and many people just are not good at taking a step back and trying to view things objectively, or from the POV of the more mainstream masses. Especially here, people tend to be extremely bias in their views. And I'd bring up the average age of TIGsters, but I don't want to get into that!

[Chris Pavia]

Relevant:  http://altdevblogaday.com/2012/01/17/the-igf-is-polarizing/

[Schoq]

I think a problem with such a system is that most people won't care. People seem to care about the IGF because it's a somewhat prestigious award with only a few categories and winners.

The benefit is that people who do care about that niche thing being awarded will be exposed to something within their niche. Isn't "niche games" a major part of indie?


Basically:

"who cares about a movie winning "best kiss"?".

Movie kiss enthusiasts do.

[C.A. Sinner]

Isn't "niche games" a major part of indie?

Yeah, a lot of the indie games I like were independently developed because they're in a genre with little popularity in the mainstream industry (e.g. roguelikes).

[DavidCaruso]

"The IGF isn't what I personally think it should be, my subjective opinion is more correct than your subjective opinion, therefore the IGF is corrupt, broken, and/or wrong."

Summarizing for anyone just coming into this thread.

derp.

Yeah, funny ain't it?   I wonder on what kind of authority people think their subjective opinion is more correct though.

Their experiences, expertise, and how well they're able to support/explain it? Just because an opinion isn't universal doesn't mean that it's suddenly immune to discussion or that some conclusions aren't more intelligent/supportable than others.

That being said, Frozen Synapse better win this shit or else I will be forced to declare the IGF judges unintelligent in my professional capacity as a world-class trained psychologist who is a TV star on the weekends. Seriously, I have the IQ charts right here:

So come on dudes, prove that you know your stuff!

EDIT:

so i think it'd be preferable to have some system in place which recognizes niche games. this is probably not the igf's role however, an alternative set of awards which recognize niche games (having a lot of winners in a lot of small categories, like "best setting" and "best villain") might be best

Genre-specific awards and also some minor aesthetic ones like you mentioned would be cool (along with that "best writing" award), and also help the whole strategy/xRPG/etc. problems. Of course the current general consensus among the gaming community seems to be that "GENRES STIFLE INNOVATION!!!!!! " so welp.

[Dragonmaw]

Frozen Synapse is easily one of my favorite strategy games of all time.

[Christoffer]

DavidCaruso you should play JS Joust. Da's all i'm sayin'...

[Christian Knudsen]

I think a problem with such a system is that most people won't care. People seem to care about the IGF because it's a somewhat prestigious award with only a few categories and winners.

The benefit is that people who do care about that niche thing being awarded will be exposed to something within their niche. Isn't "niche games" a major part of indie?

Wasn't the entire point of creating a "niche" award to spread these games to people that wouldn't otherwise hear about them? A niche award for niche games aimed at people already in the niche would create a circle-jerk of apocalyptic proportions! Dogs and cats living together!

[peanutbuttershoes]

oh you