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[st33d]

It's true though, there's no need to be a dick about being successful. But even if you aren't a dick, a lot of people will de facto brand you as one.

this isn't true; derek is successful but no one brands him as a jerk, because he doesn't talk down to people after achieving his success

I should clarify: there are people who seek out targets to brand as a villain. I'm sure the list of idiots that managed to get themselves banned from TIGSource aren't in Derek's fan club.

[Ooops]

But comments like this are incredibly ignorant:

If you can't pull off GDC you simply don't care enough to make it happen.

I'm getting some shit for this comment, but I still stand by it. 

Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum 

[Dragonmaw]

It's true though, there's no need to be a dick about being successful. But even if you aren't a dick, a lot of people will de facto brand you as one.

this isn't true; derek is successful but no one brands him as a jerk, because he doesn't talk down to people after achieving his success

I should clarify: there are people who seek out targets to brand as a villain. I'm sure the list of idiots that managed to get themselves banned from TIGSource aren't in Derek's fan club.

Given that I ban most people these days, I'd say that it's more they aren't in my fan club

[TeeGee]

But comments like this are incredibly ignorant:

If you can't pull off GDC you simply don't care enough to make it happen.

I'm getting some shit for this comment, but I still stand by it.  I was a volunteer for 7 years at the GDC (the folks in brightly-colored shirts checking your passes).  There are ~500 volunteers these days, from all countries and financial situations and walks of life.  Some of them are employed in the AAA industry, but their employers won't buy passes, and some are students or indies or even people just eyeballing the seriousness of following their dream by working in games.

I'm not ignorant of the challenges of getting to GDC, especially if you're outside of the US.  I just think the attitude that GDC attendance is overwhelmingly impossible for some people is bullshit.  I didn't say it was easy, just that it's possible if you want it enough.

Watch the "Enforcers" episode of Penny Arcade TV.  They interview a volunteer who says he's quit or been fired from multiple jobs because of taking time off for PAX: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/enforcers

P.S.  Actually, there is one demographic that might butt up against impossible.  If you're a young, single male from a politically tumultuous country, you might have a hard time even getting in to the damn country (even with a visa invite letter).  Yay immigration policy.

I don't think anybody said that it's absolutely impossible to get to the GDC (besides the extreme cases you mentioned). Only that the difficulty and cost/gain ratio will vary deeply from person to person, and attributing it only to one's willingness is highly condescending and ignorant.

Notice that all supporters of your statement come from the US, while most people who oppose to it come from different parts of the world. As brog already said: privilege is invisible to those who have it. Dislekcia is an exception, and he makes a fair point that with enough dedication anything is possible. Though, he had more than a viable reason to drop everything and go, with the DD's nomination (well deserved, it's a fantastic game!), while for most it would be simply unwise to indebt oneself just to hang around with cool people for a few days. Networking is obviously very important, but you can do it through cheaper means.

[Matthew]

Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum 

Whatever.  I strongly believe that anyone can accomplish what everyone can accomplish.  I've talked to plenty of crazy people with crazy stories on how they got to GDC.  Maybe the sacrifice isn't worth it in your position, and you'd rather not do what it takes to make the trip, but the decision is yours.

TeeGee:  Agree!  I'm not saying it's as easy for everyone else to get to GDC as it is for me to get to GDC.  That's kind of silly (I'm in Phoenix, so it's a cheap/short flight).  I do think it's irritating that people take the stance of, "Pssssh, I'm in Poland.  Ever heard of it?"  Why, yes, I have, when I met a Polish attendee last year...

BTW, the sacrifice required to become an IGF finalist itself is increasing.  More finalists these days have been in development for longer cycles.  There may come a time when you need to put years into a title, to stand any real chance of a Grand Prize nomination, and I guess people will bitch about that too.

[Dragonmaw]

Networking is obviously very important, but you can do it through cheaper means.

Like posting on an indie games forum. Now where will I find one of those?

[Manuel Magalhães]

I heard good things about the indiegames.com forums.

[Paul Eres]

@st33d

actually there are people who were banned from tigsource who still like derek -- phubans is one example

but in any case those people would dislike derek *because he banned them*, not because of his success. so the idea that people will think anyone who is successful is a jerk still seems inaccurate (but you did change the idea to 'seeking out successful people who are jerks to see as a jerk', which seems obvious)

i'm unsure of the term villain tho. i don't think anyone sees phil fish, mattheww et al as villains. the way i see it as working is: there is a supply and demand for indie games. there's much more supply than there is demand: there's more great games out there than the market can support. music and print media have a similar issue

so, let's estimate that only ~100 people can make a living through (downloadable, non-casual) indie games, but there are ~10,000 indie game developers. of those, let's say ~1000 of them make great games, and the other 9000 make so-so or poor games

so that means only 10% of great games will get the exposure they "deserve". for every cactus you have 10 cosminds, for every jeff vogel (of spiderweb software) you have 10 mark pays (of the spirit engine). what determines which 10% of great games get exposure are factors like experience, promotional ability, connections, social skills, luck, and so on

now, of the people who a) make a great game (10% of all games), and b) manage to have that game be successful (10% of all great games), you have a certain percent of those people who believe that the other 90% of already great games which are not successful are just not *as* great as the 10% of games which are successful, and that luck and connections etc. has little to nothing to do with it. it's *those* people who get called jerks. people who recognize that their success is largely due to luck and other factors, like notch has said of his success, are not called jerks. those people recognize that there are people out there who work every bit as hard as they do, but get less results for it

but such people aren't villains at all, they're just a little short-sighted and inadvertently offensive. the real "villain", if there is one, is the situation where supply so far exceeds demand that only a small fraction of people can make a living as indie game developers (no matter how high their talent at game development is)

the reason that situation exists is probably beyond the purpose of this post / topic of this thread, but there are a lot of different reasons for it, and i'm not sure which are the most important of those reasons

[Ooops]

Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum 

Whatever.  I strongly believe that anyone can accomplish what everyone can accomplish. 

Me too, because that's a truism.

Maybe the sacrifice isn't worth it in your position, and you'd rather not do what it takes to make the trip, but the decision is yours.

I'm not talking about myself here. If I ever complete something that I think would strongly benefit from my presence at the GDC, I'd have no real financial trouble attending, even if such trip would cost me more than for most of the GDC attendees. But I see beyond my own privileged situation.

And guess what? I would be able to afford it, because I'm not ultra-extra-mega DEDICATED: I still have a day job. So dedicating your whole life to an indie project, to the point of not having other sources of income, would make things MORE difficult, not LESS!

[Danrul]

I think you have to realise my point about GDC attendance is more to say that a common response to criticism is to ask people to approach whoever they want to talk to and say hello.  It is highly improbably people will get to do this in person, especially casually, given the costs of GDC attendance, which is an event all you fellers enjoy and attend and see eachother at.

So, to say that people need to sacrifice things and realise what they need to give up in order to go is missing the point.  Not only is it again indicating that to be able to go and enjoy GDC to meet people you have to be well off, its also giving off this whole idea that people AREN'T ON YOUR FUCKING LEVEL and need to STOP PISSING ABOUT.

Which is why, on the internet, where you are essentially in the public air, where your comments can be freely read, and where the majority of people are going to be seeing what you're saying, you need to think carefully about how friendly you're being to the people you're trying to say you're approachable to.

And finally, just my own little personal addendum here:

Paul's been working on SD for 4-6 years. He lives off the money he makes on the sales of his last game, and doesn't have health insurance or a car.  To say that guy doesn't have dedication enough to make it is pretty fucking rich of you (haha, multiple entendre).

There are plenty of dedicated people in this community; some who give everything they have to do what it is they love.  Unfortunately financial success isn't based on dedication, and the financial standing you're raised in can have a lot to do with it.

There are people in this community who will never reach your level of success (as much as I think their dedication deserves it, looking at you Rinku and Speeder), and that's not for lack of commitment.

So, this is aimed squarely at you Mr. Wegner, for being the most vocal and open.  If you really are self made, and really have worked your way to get to this point, surely you should have compassion for the people struggling to make it and who are giving it their all.  You'd think a trip across Africa would give a man a little more empathy and a broader world view, but I guess when you're doing it on a unicycle and having a hell of a time with friends you don't have time to smell the inequality.

[jonschubbe]

Please don't belittle the idea of riding across africa on a unicycle. That is one of my dreams. Thank you.

[Glaiel-Gamer]

Except nobody here is trying to say you don't have dedication to game development or that their games suck.

But the entire point here is if you want to be able to make a living off your game, or be successful at it, you can't sit around waiting to be the next Notch. You have to actively pursue it. A good game is a prerequisite, not the only requirement.

So, why not heed the advice of people who have managed to do that? Everyone says pretty much the same thing, go to GDC, meet people, ask advice from others, network, etc.

This is possible, for everyone. Stop interpreting it as an "attack" on those who haven't done it yet. You're only hurting yourself when you do that.

If you just want to be a hobby developer, that's fine too.

[TeeGee]

TeeGee:  Agree!  I'm not saying it's as easy for everyone else to get to GDC as it is for me to get to GDC.  That's kind of silly (I'm in Phoenix, so it's a cheap/short flight).  I do think it's irritating that people take the stance of, "Pssssh, I'm in Poland.  Ever heard of it?"  Why, yes, I have, when I met a Polish attendee last year...

BTW, the sacrifice required to become an IGF finalist itself is increasing.  More finalists these days have been in development for longer cycles.  There may come a time when you need to put years into a title, to stand any real chance of a Grand Prize nomination, and I guess people will bitch about that too.

Man, after what you wrote, I could as well go Allen-style instead of "Pssssh, I'm in Poland.  Ever heard of it?". I don't take offense at what you think. I can even accept your point. But the tone? Nope. It was simply hurtful.

When I was around 20, I was the same starry-eyed young indie developer as some of the people who posted here about their GDC experience. I watched the photos from each IGF, wishing I could be there with the awesome indie crowd (I would still like that). However, it was - maybe not technically - but realistically impossible. Still, I didn't mind that. I just work hard as fuck, make contacts/friends through the internet (including some of the "famous" indies), release games, and hope that eventually I'll be financially stable enough to go. And then comes a guy and tells me that the fact I and others haven't attended yet, is because we don't want it deeply enough. Uhh... 

This is something I always found interesting about your culture. You guys are extremely politically correct in some cases. Like, just mention the topic or gender, queerness or race and everyone gets their pants up in a wad, as you've been taught to be very sensitive to these issues. But at the same time, you can be condescending assholes, seemingly unaware of the rest of the world, and not see anything offensive about it.

And I don't think people will complain that you have work for years to be a finalist (wasn't it always like that). Unless a guy comes over and says that whoever can't support themselves without income for 3 years just doesn't think positively enough to succeed.

[Dragonmaw]

I can honestly say that ArcMagi is one of my most anticipated games. So... you have a fan in me!

[Matthew]

So, this is aimed squarely at you Mr. Wegner, for being the most vocal and open.  If you really are self made, and really have worked your way to get to this point, surely you should have compassion for the people struggling to make it and who are giving it their all.  You'd think a trip across Africa would give a man a little more empathy and a broader world view, but I guess when you're doing it on a unicycle and having a hell of a time with friends you don't have time to smell the inequality.

This is getting fairly personal, but I'll bite:  Why do you assume I'm rich?  Flashbang's salary, when we had six people and an office, was $2k/month.  The first few years had no real revenue to speak of, and I lived in my girlfriend's mom's house for $150/month.  Flashbang has never had a hit game; our 8-year lifetime revenue is an order of magnitude below even one semi-hit game.

Apologies if I came off as dispassionate.  If your interpretation of my statements hinges on some vision of me as an rich, indie elite robber baron, then we're going to end up in different places.