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[Danrul]

@Glaiel saying what is necessary to be successful: But in saying that its about dedication and dedication alone you are missing my point.  Paul Eres is right here, in this fucking topic, in front of you.

He is in development full time.  He is not middle class, he isn't in a situation where people can support him financially and help him through until he makes it.  This is someone who is totally fucking passionate about what they're doing, and cannot afford to do all the things you label as being necessary to success.

You know what this highlights?  The fact that there is in fact an entry fee, and prerequisite costs, to being successful.  It is not possible for everyone to do, because not everyone can afford it.

Another name, even less recognised, is speeder, from around the forums.  He lives in Brazil, works toward it, and while I might personally find the guy annoying, he's nice and he's passionate about what he's doing.  He simply does not have the financial means to go to GDC and make it all happen.

People pour effort into what they do, but there is a reality to the world that not everyone has solid ground to stand on financially, and if success has to come at the hands of networking, and if you're really willing to help, you have to realise that you can't just extend that personability in person.

Also, this isn't personal for me, I have no interest in game design as a career.  I couldn't even call myself hobbyist.  I'm not attributing it as an attack, or a deliberate conspiracy to keep the little guy down.  You just need to be more understanding that you are lucky and privileged, and what may seem like a simple pathway to success to you is outside the grasp of others.

EDIT: I'll just do this response quickly and inline because I think you're missing my point here.

This is getting fairly personal, but I'll bite:  Why do you assume I'm rich?  Flashbang's salary, when we had six people and an office, was $2k/month.  The first few years had no real revenue to speak of, and I lived in my girlfriend's mom's house for $150/month.  Flashbang has never had a hit game; our 8-year lifetime revenue is an order of magnitude below even one semi-hit game.

Apologies if I came off as dispassionate.  If your interpretation of my statements hinges on some vision of me as an rich, indie elite robber baron, then we're going to end up in different places.

I have already tried to get across I don't think of you guys as "rich, indie elite robber baron".  I'm just trying to say on a human level you need to be more understanding, because your defensiveness is weakening your ability to come across as being friendly and approachable.  

You've lived on $150 a month, you must realise its difficult.  Realise there are people here doing the same, and they're just as dedicated as you would have been.  Nothing I said is driven by jealousy or loathing, I'm just trying to help everyone understand eachother a little better here.

EDIT2: Also note I'm not singling you out for any reason rather than you're actually giving responses that respond to what people are saying.  Just because I respond back doesn't mean its a cause for victimisation.

EDIT3: just a quick thing to clarify who and what i'm responding to so people don't get confused or take me out of context!  Edits galore, i'm on a roll.

[TeeGee]

I can honestly say that ArcMagi is one of my most anticipated games. So... you have a fan in me!

Thanks . And sorry it takes forever. Gotta entrap Lurk one of these days and not let go unless he finishes all the artwork.

But again, I don't feel excluded, unsuccessful, frustrated or butthurt in any other way. I'm using myself as an example, but I'm pretty happy about where I am in my life and career. I just get angry when someone indirectly calls me "a hobby developer" or lacking dedication, event though I spent last 7 years of my life making games professionally. Dedication and being able to spend $2k on a trip to meet some friends are two different things.

[Matthew]

I'll be blunt:  I think Paul Eres will eventually be successful.  I also think he should move on from SD.  The game is saddled with a number of problems, including a lot of really bad writing (sorry Paul!).  Pull a Tommy (who dropped Goo!, found a new partner, did a test game, and then made Super Meat Boy).  There are other stories in the same vein, too.

I always expected my 10th game to be my personal milestone for success.  I haven't even made it there, depending on how you count.  My own solution is to muster energy for another, or back off a bit if I'm too burnt out.

[brog]

Why do you assume I'm rich?

Your signature labels you as a partner in Indie Fund.  So presumably you're some degree of "rich" to be able to invest in other people's projects (by the standards of people here, if not by the standards of the other guys in the fund).
(I think the fund is totally cool btw - indie games aren't the safest investment by any means so it's pretty clear you're doing it out of love, which I respect.)

[Danrul]

A RESPONSE!

And this for me, is more indicative of the level of personal and tailored advice I'd like to see from those who have succeeded. While I can't speak for everyone, if you really feel you have advice to provide, don't hesitate to give it.  Everyone who is successful does not just exist as a person attending GDC, they are an online presence who should really try their best to act with maturity and respect for those who might not have made it as far.

I would also recommend either not getting defensive about "indie elite" comments or ignoring those sections of peoples comments, because as a whole the people who feel the need to respond to them do a rather tidy job of making what is a tangible gap in communication larger.

EDIT: I should probably stop doing these as edits and just consider my posts more fully before I submit them, but when when I use any kind of collective "you", and perhaps many other people, just try and consider it as a reference to "M. Wegner and his friends", also successful devs, instead of the knee jerk "M. Wegner and his band of merry indie elitists".  There are a few of you (friends), who, probably as a result of being nardburgers, aren't all that good at interacting with others (online??).  If Fish wants to come in and shit on people sarcastically, that's fine, but its actions like that which are going to make any sort of gap you're trying to avoid more and more tangible.

It'd be very easy, and it'd make sense, if you all just kinda thought "why waste my time trying to appease a bunch of strangers who I've never met and whose lives don't affect me".  If that's the case, and if you really couldn't care if some tigf member thinks you're a wanker, stop responding with victimisation in your voice.  And, if there is no genuine interest in trying to be friendly outside if someone actually comes up and talks to you in your face, stop raising it as a defense online.  The onus shouldn't be on any one party to initiate contact, especially if the insularity of your personalities is purely some form of jealousy.

[Dragonmaw]

I think Paul should work on a game with me.

[Matthew]

Your signature labels you as a partner in Indie Fund.

My capital contribution to Indie Fund is south of 0.5%.  This is primarily due to differences in initial intended structure and what we rolled out with (PM me if you're curious about the details).

[Paul Eres]

the writing in SD is actually just in first draft form (it's an unfinished game; unfinished games are allowed to be entered in the IGF, remember), so i'd suggest not judging the writing based on its current state. wynand still had to re-write and edit most of the dialogue, a lot of it is just placeholder that i put in since he hasn't had the time

i am interested in any other feedback you have about the game though (you can either post it in its thread or use a PM, so as not to distract from this topic); i didn't know you had played it. but remember that the game, despite having 4 years dev time, is still unfinished, there are still big changes to the game that i expect to add in the future

i'm pretty familiar with a lot of (but probably not all of) the problems of the game (through playtesting, etc.) and plan to fix those. the general consensus among playtesters seems to be that the game starts off slow for the first few hours before it gets good, much like aquaria. giving up the game after 4 years of work, as mattheww is suggesting, would disappoint a lot of the people who like it, as well as the rest of the team who have worked so hard on it

also danrul and mattheww probably shouldn't use me as an example of an "unsuccessful" indie. i've released a single commercial game so far, and it's succeeded more than i expected it to succeed -- about 5000 sales (i expected a few hundred). and this was back when indie games weren't a big thing (back in 2007 when they were just rising)

so just in terms of results, i'm more successful than some of the "gdc indies" (many of which have yet to release their first commercial game), even though i don't go to the gdc. it's just that even moderate success like that isn't enough to live comfortably on for 5 years. so i'd say my main mistake was being overambitious with my second commercial game; i probably should have done a sequel to ID to afford to be able to finish SD more comfortably

as an aside, the feedback SD has gotten from the IGF has been mostly positive; last year it got one piece of feedback, saying that they wish they had a "game with the most potential" award to vote for it (as well as pointing out a number of bugs that i've since fixed). so if it has so many problems that require it being given up even though it's about 80% done, i haven't heard about that from the IGF previously

[Glaiel-Gamer]

as an aside, the feedback SD has gotten from the IGF has been mostly positive; last year it got one piece of feedback, saying that they wish they had a "game with the most potential" award to vote for it. so if it has so many problems that require it being given up, i haven't heard about that from the IGF previously

in regards to "game with most potential", you should come to gdc to see steve swink's shadow physics talk


(I didnt play SD so I'm not gonna comment on it)
(edit: steve is giving a shadow physics talk right?)

[cynicalsandel]

I'll be blunt:  I think Paul Eres will eventually be successful.  I also think he should move on from SD.  The game is saddled with a number of problems, including a lot of really bad writing (sorry Paul!).  Pull a Tommy (who dropped Goo!, found a new partner, did a test game, and then made Super Meat Boy).  There are other stories in the same vein, too.

I've never played SD, so I can't speak about its problems, but I think working on a game for 5 years is a bad idea. Not just talking about Paul, but I think anyone who works on a game for that long might have trouble seeing any problems with their games. I think the more time you spend on a project, the more attached to it you get, and you will only see it as the project you've spent 5 years of your life on.

I also think Paul will eventually be successful, maybe not with SD, but I think it will happen. I think one big problem is that nobody knows about his games. If I wasn't a member here on tigsource, I wouldn't know that it exists. I don't know if he does any marketing, but if he does, he either isn't doing enough, or isn't doing it well enough.

edit:

Your signature labels you as a partner in Indie Fund.

My capital contribution to Indie Fund is south of 0.5%.  This is primarily due to differences in initial intended structure and what we rolled out with (PM me if you're curious about the details).

Not just that, but you have co-chair of the IGF and founder of flashbang studios also in your signature. I have no idea if that really means much, but it seems like you would be well known in the indie scene.

[hanako]

But the entire point here is if you want to be able to make a living off your game, or be successful at it, you can't sit around waiting to be the next Notch. You have to actively pursue it. A good game is a prerequisite, not the only requirement.

So, why not heed the advice of people who have managed to do that? Everyone says pretty much the same thing, go to GDC, meet people, ask advice from others, network, etc.

There are a number of people who make their living from game development who haven't been to the GDC. Stop equating "in general" with "everyone"

Networking in some form probably is actually useful for everyone. I have certainly picked up useful tips from hanging out with the right people online.

Not like a mad bastard in a cave somewhere can't create the perfect game through some combination of chance and divine inspiration, but good luck on those odds!

[Paul Eres]

in regards to "game with most potential", you should come to gdc to see steve swink's shadow physics talk

maybe i'll see it on video; i do wish the gdc would put more of their talks on video

@cynicalsandel - i did make other games while working on SD, so it wasn't 5 years of pure work on SD. for instance, i coded the fedora spade games during that interval, as well as a level editor for ID

i don't think it's true that nobody knows about my games though. as i mentioned, my last game had ~5000 sales and ~300,000 demo downloads, which isn't nobody, even if it isn't up there with super meat boy. i've even had fans randomly recognize my name while playing starcraft and league of legends, which still surprises me. and i still get google alerts for my game's name all the time, of people discussing it in forums and such

but yes it is absolutely true that i haven't done much marketing for my current game. there have been a few previews of it (on playthisthing and on indiegames.com/blog) though. and an interview here and there. but i haven't sought those out, or sent out preview copies, or made a trailer or teaser yet. i expect to do all that during the run-up to the game's release, because it's all i can do to finish the game itself, if i focused more on promotion i would not be able to finish the game for another 5 years

[Matthew]

A RESPONSE!

EDIT: I should probably stop doing these as edits and just consider my posts more fully before I submit them

The edits are a little weird, because sometimes I'll reply before seeing one and then everything is out of order.

Anyway, I do apologize for the snarky tone.  Looking through my posts, it started with a response to allen's "spoiled rich kid" accusation. Not an excuse--responding to trolls is never an excuse--just trying to put it on a timeline.  Very few things push my buttons, but the "indie elite" story is one of them.  Indie game dev is far and away the most meritocratic scene I'm a part of.  The social currency here is creation, and everyone has the tools to participate.

[Matthew]

(edit: steve is giving a shadow physics talk right?)

The "Failure Workshop" has been moved to IGS, and I believe Steve is one of the four presenters (100% confirmed schedule should be up soon).

[Danrul]

I think its important not to bandy about the word troll.  Allen tends to raise very intelligent points, even if most people get caught up on the aggression in his tone.  It's also funny to see people call for him to be banned for not adding anything to the community, when I'd say he contributes more than anyone to the feedback forum.  

It just comes down to people not being able to see past the way people say things and see the point they're trying to raise.  While the way someone expresses themself is important, you shouldn't disregard what is being said because you disagree with how it was served to you.