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December 21, 2014, 08:57:27 PM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralIGF Thread 2012
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Soulliard
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« Reply #720 on: January 12, 2012, 01:47:30 PM »

Of the things I've said in this thread, what bothered you the most?
For me, it was the implication that if you weren't at GDC (and, by extension, if you weren't successful), it was due to some personal failing.

It gave me the same vibes as people who complain about food stamps, because "Why don't they just get a job?" It's a lack of understanding or empathy for the circumstances some people have to deal with.

I know you're not a bad guy, but if I was judging you by this thread alone, I would picture you in my mind as one of the snooty private school kids that the protagonists defeat in an inspirational sports movie.
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Matthew
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« Reply #721 on: January 12, 2012, 01:50:01 PM »

For the record, I just do hosting/tech stuff on TIGSource (I've never taken an administrative action on the forums, ie a ban or whatever).

But yeah, I do try to represent all the stuff in my signature when I post.  It's one reason I don't post very much Wink
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Matthew Wegner
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« Reply #722 on: January 12, 2012, 01:50:21 PM »

this place would be so much better if so many people didn't make such a distinction between "us" and "them".

i wish i could just come here to hang out like i used to, but i cant anymore.
im constantly being attacked for this or for that.
always being accused of something or another.
being part of a conspiracy, or having somekind of unfair advantage?
this place used to be welcoming. a great recourse, a sanctuary almost.
now it's a cesspool and a hive of mediocrity where everybody is allergic to everybody else's success.

yes there is an elite.
there cant not be one.
some people are going to be better than others, and rise to the top for it.
i dont believe any of these people are there because of outside elements, but only because of talent and perseverance.
this idea that the people who succeeded only did so because of who they knew or whose dick they suck belittles the actual work that was put into that success.

i didnt get to where i am because i know brandon boyer.
as others have pointed it out in this thread, i can be quick to burn bridges, and im not shy about letting the people i dont like know i dont like them.
a LOT of people dont like me and want to see me fail. just read this fucking thread.
i got to where i am DESPITE a lot of people.
im where i am now because of hard fucking work and sacrifice.

fuck anybody who says otherwise.


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« Reply #723 on: January 12, 2012, 01:50:33 PM »

As someone who is generally new to indie game development, it makes me somewhat sad that there is all of this...well, unhappiness in regards to a lot. Of course, it would be foolish to think that I'd only find happiness and joy.

But there's a lot of anger all over. Oh well. I guess it happens.
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« Reply #724 on: January 12, 2012, 01:53:01 PM »

While its certainly within peoples rights to respond to rudeness, can't you see that it achieves absolutely nothing but short lived catharsis?

"UR A FAGGOT"

oh god, this guy made me so mad, I'm going to give him a piece of my mind, I'm really going to show him

"UR A BUTTANKLE"

It really ultimately achieves nothing. I don't care how 'civil' your response is, the second you amount to retorting with a personal jab to counter them, you're just prolonging the argument.  It's that fucking simple.

If you want to do that, fine.  If I have to spell it out for you like this, fine.  But you can hardly start pointing the finger at "who started it" if you're going to respond on a personal level.

You can give criticism without having to make it an attack.
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #725 on: January 12, 2012, 01:54:08 PM »

UR A BUTTANKLE
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TeeGee
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« Reply #726 on: January 12, 2012, 01:57:06 PM »

That's an understandable position. But by those standards, Allen should be the one you oppose to the most, as so far only he resorted to direct personal attacks.

Personally, I think there's also a difference between an angry but pointful post and "U FAGGOT".
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« Reply #727 on: January 12, 2012, 02:00:12 PM »

Of the things I've said in this thread, what bothered you the most?
For me, it was the implication that if you weren't at GDC (and, by extension, if you weren't successful), it was due to some personal failing.

Fair enough!  And I genuinely didn't mean it to come off that way.  There was a lot more excitement behind the keyboard that didn't transfer so well into text.

It's frustrating to see people who want to go to GDC, who think it might help them or change their lives (and GDC certainly shaped my life when I was 18--although specifically the CA program), and yet they throw up excuses about why they haven't gone.  I want to shake these people and yell, "No!  You can go!  It might be hard, and it might take some work, but there's a way.  Let's sit down and work out how".

And this isn't just GDC, or just game development--you see things relegated to pipe dreams all the time, whether it's starting an Etsy shop, or picking up the guitar, or going to Burning Man, or whatever.  I just wish more people viewed problems as solvable.

Your board might look like this:



Or it might start like this:



But it's still the same game...

And if GDC is out, start your own thing.  TIGJam is a fairly large event now, but I started it by emailing some friends and asking if they'd actually fly out to Phoenix for a larger game jam (because Phoenix's own scene was pretty small).
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Matthew Wegner
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« Reply #728 on: January 12, 2012, 02:06:48 PM »

this place would be so much better if so many people didn't make such a distinction between "us" and "them".

i wish i could just come here to hang out like i used to, but i cant anymore.
im constantly being attacked for this or for that.
always being accused of something or another.
being part of a conspiracy, or having somekind of unfair advantage?
this place used to be welcoming. a great recourse, a sanctuary almost.
now it's a cesspool and a hive of mediocrity where everybody is allergic to everybody else's success.

yes there is an elite.
there cant not be one.
some people are going to be better than others, and rise to the top for it.
i dont believe any of these people are there because of outside elements, but only because of talent and perseverance.
this idea that the people who succeeded only did so because of who they knew or whose dick they suck belittles the actual work that was put into that success.

i didnt get to where i am because i know brandon boyer.
as others have pointed it out in this thread, i can be quick to burn bridges, and im not shy about letting the people i dont like know i dont like them.
a LOT of people dont like me and want to see me fail. just read this fucking thread.
i got to where i am DESPITE a lot of people.
im where i am now because of hard fucking work and sacrifice.

fuck anybody who says otherwise.


If you want to understand why people have such an animosity to what you call the 'indie elite', you really need to take a step back and read what you've posted.

You have such a strong sense of persecution in everything you've just written, when nobody has actually gone and made a personal attack on you (so far as I've read, I'll admit I haven't read the entire thing).  The biggest objection comes from a disagreement on the aims of the IGF, which to many, seems to have become a method of highlighting projects and developers that have already reached success, or financial security, with the help of the publicity and funding the IGF brings.  While the length of a dev cycle for indie games are increasing, I think it is against the aims of a prize that seeks to reward innovation and originality to continually praise the same games year in year out.

Any animosity directed towards Fez being a strong contender doesn't come purely on the basis on it being Fez and everyone hates Phil Fish and wants to see him fail, it comes on the basis that there were (off the top of my head) several hundred entries into the IGF this year, and the list of nominees and favourites appears to be very similar to the year before and the year previous.

It enforces a stagnation in the community and also enforces this insularity of the developers at the recieving end of this praise.

As for how you carry yourself, you only ever pop in with anger and a point to prove.  Again, if you want to be treated well, and if you want to be rid of this "us" and "them" mentality, stop enforcing it with what you're saying and doing.

If you come in to respond to criticism to say FUCK YOU SO WHAT IF THERE IS AN ELITE, ME AND MY FRIENDS ARE BETTER THAN YOU, YOU ALL JUST WANT TO SEE ME FAIL, you are instantly turning people who might not even give 2 shits about the entire thing to think "why is this guy being so angry?".

I speak as someone who thinks Fez looks great, but know Phish only as a short tempered assclown who pops in to respond to his armies of haters, or something.  You're so sensitive to the criticism that you react to harmless and obvious sarcasm Seen Here with animosity and anger.

If you tried harder not to let it affect you, and started acting like you say you wish you want to, the rest will flow on from there.  It's hard for other people not to dislike you if you all you give them to respond to is hatred and self importance.
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« Reply #729 on: January 12, 2012, 02:10:32 PM »

this place would be so much better if so many people didn't make such a distinction between "us" and "them".

i wish i could just come here to hang out like i used to, but i cant anymore.
im constantly being attacked for this or for that.
always being accused of something or another.
being part of a conspiracy, or having somekind of unfair advantage?
this place used to be welcoming. a great recourse, a sanctuary almost.
now it's a cesspool and a hive of mediocrity where everybody is allergic to everybody else's success.

yes there is an elite.
there cant not be one.
some people are going to be better than others, and rise to the top for it.
i dont believe any of these people are there because of outside elements, but only because of talent and perseverance.
this idea that the people who succeeded only did so because of who they knew or whose dick they suck belittles the actual work that was put into that success.

i didnt get to where i am because i know brandon boyer.
as others have pointed it out in this thread, i can be quick to burn bridges, and im not shy about letting the people i dont like know i dont like them.
a LOT of people dont like me and want to see me fail. just read this fucking thread.
i got to where i am DESPITE a lot of people.
im where i am now because of hard fucking work and sacrifice.

fuck anybody who says otherwise.


I think apart from a few isolated bitter comments, the problem was not the fact that there is a successful elite, or that members of such Elite are supporting each other. It's really fine. The problem came from a perceived opinion of some members of said "Elite": that those who fail are not dedicated enough.

You say you are where you are because of work and sacrifice, and I of course believe you. Others are not in the same place, despite similar levels of work and sacrifice. That's OK. That's life. Maybe they had less talent, or were more unlucky. Regardless, comments such as "you'd be successful if you committed yourself to come to the GDC" are unhelpful because some people genuinely can't.
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jonschubbe
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« Reply #730 on: January 12, 2012, 02:16:05 PM »

I think apart from a few isolated bitter comments, the problem was not the fact that there is a successful elite, or that members of such Elite are supporting each other. It's really fine. The problem came from a perceived opinion of some members of said "Elite": that those who fail are not dedicated enough.

You say you are where you are because of work and sacrifice, and I of course believe you. Others are not in the same place, despite similar levels of work and sacrifice. That's OK. That's life. Maybe they had less talent, or were more unlucky. Regardless, comments such as "you'd be successful if you committed yourself to come to the GDC" are unhelpful because some people genuinely can't.

Going to GDC was offered as friendly and helpful advice to people looking to network. That came from people accusing judges of only letting popular developers' games become finalists, completely disregarding any talent said developers might actually have.
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« Reply #731 on: January 12, 2012, 02:17:06 PM »

i wish i could just come here to hang out like i used to, but i cant anymore.

For whatever it's worth (and that's probably not much, I'm not a regular around here.  The Ogre3D forums is my usual hang-out) - I think it's awesome what you've achieved.  Any awards and recognition are fully deserved.  

More people should consider your success an inspiration for what a hard working indie can achieve.
Good luck on finishing and releasing the game.
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #732 on: January 12, 2012, 02:29:27 PM »

Phil, I think a lot of people don't like you because you have a condescending attitude and constantly paint yourself to be the victim. It's pretty insufferable. Has nothing to do with your game or wanting you to fail. I think you are generally pretty atrocious whenever you post on TIGS, but Fez is pretty damn good (dunno if I'm really allowed to share my full thoughts, considering it was IGF judging stuff).

You also complain about the distinction some hobbyists are making between "us" and "them" and then you go about making the exact same distinction in your post. Do you not get the hypocrisy of that?

Being an asshole on the forums, then claiming that the forums are bad because people don't like you, is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course they don't like you. You are being an asshole. And being an asshole and then disappearing certainly does nothing for your image. Allen rages and acts like a douche, and then he pops back to leave good posts in Feedback.

I definitely want TIGS to see more posts from active, accomplished indie devs, and I'm sure you agree. But you also have to remember that this is a public, open community populated by far more people than TIGS early days. Most of the old TIGers have also moved on to focus more on work than making internet social contacts. There's nothing wrong with that, but painting a pretty active forum as a "cesspool" is not only a douche move, it's outright wrong. All I have to do is point to Devlogs, Feedback, Technical, or Announcements to disprove that.

Note that I'm not really inclined to believe there is some conspiracy or cronyism or indie elite, just that very polished, commercial games tend to attract the jurists' attentions.

---

TL;DR maybe people would like you better if you didn't condescend to them every time you visit the forums and act like the victim
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phubans
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« Reply #733 on: January 12, 2012, 02:29:32 PM »

this place would be so much better if so many people didn't make such a distinction between "us" and "them".

i wish i could just come here to hang out like i used to, but i cant anymore.
im constantly being attacked for this or for that.
always being accused of something or another.
being part of a conspiracy, or having somekind of unfair advantage?
this place used to be welcoming. a great recourse, a sanctuary almost.
now it's a cesspool and a hive of mediocrity where everybody is allergic to everybody else's success.

yes there is an elite.
there cant not be one.
some people are going to be better than others, and rise to the top for it.
i dont believe any of these people are there because of outside elements, but only because of talent and perseverance.
this idea that the people who succeeded only did so because of who they knew or whose dick they suck belittles the actual work that was put into that success.

i didnt get to where i am because i know brandon boyer.
as others have pointed it out in this thread, i can be quick to burn bridges, and im not shy about letting the people i dont like know i dont like them.
a LOT of people dont like me and want to see me fail. just read this fucking thread.
i got to where i am DESPITE a lot of people.
im where i am now because of hard fucking work and sacrifice.

fuck anybody who says otherwise.




I tried being nice to you, dude, I really like your game. You gave me the impression that I wasn't good enough for your respect, which is the only reason I've said anything negative about you. That aside, I still respect your vision for games and look forward to playing Fez (hopefully on PC)... I just can't help but feel like you snubbed me every time I've reached out to you because I don't fit your criteria of cool or talented, but I don't really know you so I could be assuming too much.

And there isn't a problem with being "elite"- it is a natural state of affairs as you pointed out... But it becomes a problem when that elite reaches a point where admission closes to anyone else. Sure, you could say there are other talented people who could prove themselves to you if they work hard enough, but how much is enough?

Put yourself in my shoes for a minute; I've made sacrifices for game development, too. I've been doing it for 25 years and I have boxes full of papers that are sketches and designs for games to prove it. This shit is my life. I spent 3 entire years working on Madhouse in Game Maker, by myself, for 3 whole years. I didn't have much of a social life during those years, and I taught myself everything. I drew and animated every single piece of artwork, wrote every line of code (without even knowing GML prior) and made something that received a largely positive reception from the forums where I posted it. Eventually I was one of the select few Game Maker "elites" to be invited to The Poppenkast, along with Cactus and JW, who are now very successful indies.

In 2005 I moved across the country, leaving my friends, family, and the only life I ever knew entirely behind for the sake of chasing the dream that I'd have a better chance at success in the game industry if I moved to California. And yeah, I've had opportunities here that I could have never had back in Pennsylvania, but I sacrificed a lot and every time I fail at something I have to wonder if I made the right choice. I've gotten into so many dead-end projects with people I've met through forums like these, people that ultimately proved to be unreliable or otherwise occupied by whatever was going on in their own life to help me see the projects we started through to the end. I was left holding the bag; a bag full of hundreds of hours and megabytes of work that would never see the light of day.

I've had studios want to put my game on proper platforms only to want to change it; I turned them down for the sake of keeping my artistic integrity. I've broken down and cried when projects got dropped. I've scraped by on student loan checks, contract jobs that offered little more than a few thousand per gig, and I'm at the point now where I'm applying for foodstamps because the end of my current project is in sight and I want to get it to the market, hoping that it does well enough to at least pay my bills through the year so I can continue making bigger, more ambitious projects.

The thing is, yeah, it's hard for me, someone who has devoted their entire life to doing game development, who could really do nothing else but this, and who has worked just as hard as anyone else, to fail. It's hard for me to feel like I'm a nobody in the eyes of somebody like you; who is acknowledged and respected for doing the exact same thing that I do, but perhaps with a better visual flair than I've done it. I don't know... That's all I've got to say about it. I just wanted you to give me the same respect I gave you.


EDIT: Nevermind, you won't read this, you won't reply, you won't care. It doesn't matter, anyways. You'll do fine with your success and I intend to, as well.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 02:43:22 PM by phubans » Logged

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« Reply #734 on: January 12, 2012, 02:47:03 PM »

Yeah, you either have to bail or pivot and completely rework the game.  In the case of Shadow Physics and Goo, the core concept of a "game about shadows" or a "game about fluid" are solid, but the way those mechanics were utilized and implemented was flawed when it came to supporting actual gameplay. A pivot could have solved those problems, but at that point we would have basically had to make a new game.  This is what Marian ended up doing.


That's too bad, I was looking forward to Shadow Physics. Are you working on another game now?
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #735 on: January 12, 2012, 02:48:27 PM »

That's too bad, I was looking forward to Shadow Physics. Are you working on another game now?

I know steve's working on a new game that's pretty fucking cool right now
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« Reply #736 on: January 12, 2012, 02:55:16 PM »

paul, i don't get to decide who gets invited to the elite.
it's not an organised thing. nobody has control over anything.

i dont remember meeting you at derek's party.
but every online interaction i've had with you was creepy and bordering on stalking?
you weird me out. to quote the 40 year old virgin, you're putting the pussy on a pedestal.
stop putting me in your games. it's weird.
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« Reply #737 on: January 12, 2012, 03:06:20 PM »

That's too bad, I was looking forward to Shadow Physics. Are you working on another game now?

Had to get a real job (one that actually pays well and gives me health insurance). In my case a real job is still game development though. Might do some more indie stuff though in the future.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 03:17:31 PM by Impossible » Logged
phubans
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« Reply #738 on: January 12, 2012, 03:06:26 PM »

paul, i don't get to decide who gets invited to the elite.
it's not an organised thing. nobody has control over anything.

i dont remember meeting you at derek's party.
but every online interaction i've had with you was creepy and bordering on stalking?
you weird me out. to quote the 40 year old virgin, you're putting the pussy on a pedestal.
stop putting me in your games. it's weird.

>>Referring to self as "the pussy"...

...Not sure if serious. Huh?

Yeah, we met briefly at Derek's, I told you Fez looked great and congrats with it. I shook your hand. I think you were pretty drunk and/or stoned; you just kind of stared of blankly like a dead, well... Fish. So after that I didn't think much of it except, "Okay, maybe he's smug" or whatever, but then I noticed other people pointing out the same things about you and I joined in. Every subsequent interaction with you (sending you PMs) was just kind of trollish behavior, but I can see how they would be creepy in the context of actually taking it seriously.

As for putting you in my game, that was one game, which was a parody of the indie culture, and I figured you were a recognized-enough member of the source material to be worth putting in. If you had actually played the game you'd realize you weren't the only indie developer it featured, and there are no further plans to include you in any of my other games. Besides, outside of the indie game community, people like you aren't even really known (no offense), so much of the references in that game fell on deaf ears.

Hopefully this clears everything up between us.
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« Reply #739 on: January 12, 2012, 03:07:18 PM »

To be completely fair, Phubans you ARE kind of a creeper allsometimes
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