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[C.A. Sinner]

KNIGHTS OF THE CHALICE

[randomshade]

Thanks for the suggestions Paul and C.A. There are many games in there I've not played (and a couple I've not even heard of.)

Regarding the Spiderweb games: Yes, I'll agree that most of them are really good; my favorite being Avadon. That said, I still don't think any of them make sense for any IGF nomination other than the grand prize. If there was a narrative/story-telling category as has been suggested a few times in this thread, I think they'd definitely be worthy for that. And in terms of the grand prize, well, I'm still not surprised that they don't get nominated and don't consider it some kind of failing/injustice of the IGF or its processes.

Even among my RPG-fanatic friends, the SW games are not very well received. Which just means to me that they occupy an even more niche audience of the already (to some degree) niche genre RPG.

Regarding some of the others you mentioned that I've played: TSE2 is one my favorite games of all time! And while I think that it would have had a better shot of a grand prize nomination than the SW games, it is still quite niche even among RPG fans. Dangerous HS Girls was interesting and unique, but ultimately wasn't highly enjoyable for me and I suspect not for most people who played it. Cthulu Saves the World and Space Funeral were both games I enjoyed, but again, I don't see what IGF nomination they clearly deserved.

I believe that Recettear was nominated in the IGF, although it didn't win. To me, of all the games you listed (that I've played) this one had the highest chance to win at the IGF. It had very high production values and a unique, fun experience. It was quickly distinct and ultimately memorable. Perhaps the high production values were the reason it received more IGF fanfare than some of these other games mentioned that just provide the unique and entertaining aspects.

[hanako]

I like the spiderweb games but I don't think they are great in the right ways for the existing IGF categories. I think my own latest release is full of awesome but it's not a kind of awesome that the existing IGF structure is set up to recognise. I tend to be a replayability junkie design-wise but that can mean that you don't see everything I'm doing unless you're already interested enough to play the game through multiple times. Square peg, round hole.

... that's actually one of the reasons that my current project 'reveals the dice rolling' to some extent. attempting to make it visually clear to the player just how ridiculously branchy the ongoing story is and how much it's twisting and shaping based on their character.

[Paul Eres]

to be clear i wasn't saying that the games i listed should have won the igf necessarily, just that i had more fun with them than most igf winners. the igf mainly values production quality (3 of its categories are exclusively about production quality: visuals, audio, and technical), and doesn't have categories for things like immersion, setting, storytelling, characterization, etc., which are the things i most value in games

it does seem strange though that it's judging indie games mainly on factors where indie games are weakest (production values). if i wanted production values, i would not play an indie game

[Craig Stern]

I believe that Recettear was nominated in the IGF, although it didn't win.

It wasn't--it received an honorable mention.

[AndySchatz]

I played Recettear as part of my judging duties.  The actual bargaining element was very thin, and was more about learning the coded language of the AI than some sort of real bargaining sim.  The RPG elements were fine but nothing remarkable.  The whole thing was very complete and polished, but IMO it didn't deserve a nom (though there were plenty of judges that enjoyed it immensely). I don't think it was nominated but I believe it got an honorable mention.

I also played Barkley Shut Up and Jam Gaiden and found that I didn't connect to anything about the gameplay, despite enjoying the fun/quirky setting.  This was another one where I think there was significant disagreement between judges - though I can't say for sure, this was in the IGF before the jury system was in place.

Admittedly, both of those games are homage to early Console RPGs, and homage tends to connect to those that have fond memories of their source.  I didn't grow up playing Zelda, so I don't connect to them.  I believe this is why homage games tend to not fair as well in the IGF in general (Retro City Rampage was nominated last year, but there is a strong chorus that thinks it should have been nominated for EVERYTHING, understandable IMO even if I don't share that passion).  It's also probably true that while homage is fun, it tends not to "move the medium" forward in any significant way.

I think of all the games that suffered from judges not being able to give a game enough time, Neptune's Pride suffered the most.  Since that's a game that is necessarily played over a few weeks, not enough judges were able to give it its due attention since many didn't actually start judging games until shortly before the deadline.  Judges often wait this long partly out of respect to the developers, since the devs often update their games all the way up until the judging deadline.

There have been games that I've only spent 15-30 minutes with, but that's rare.  I only skip out that early if the game is really, genuinely BAD (or broken).  Keep in mind I probably played 50 games for this year's IGF, so I have to prioritize my time to the games that I think deserve it.

[AndySchatz]

Not that all judges are this dedicated, but here is the list of games that I played this entry period long enough to get a very solid feeling for them (30-60 minutes in most cases, a few of the games I spent an entire evening on):

A Day In The Woods (RetroEpic Software)
A Valley Without Wind (Arcen Games)
A Virus Named TOM (Misfits Attic)
Age of Defenders (CUKETA, s. r. o.)
Anomaly Warzone Earth (11 Bit Studios)
ASYNC Corp. (Powerhead Games)
Atom Zombie Smasher (Blendo Games)
Autumn Dynasty (Touch Dimensions)
BitShifter (Plastic Games)
Blocks That Matter (Swing Swing Submarine)
Boomblastica (Thrust Interactive)
Captain Jameson (Farbs Farbs Farbs)
Cattoe Tactics (Doo-Yul Park)
Convergence (Sacred Software)
Dear Esther (thechineseroom)
Deepak Fights Robots (Company? Fuck that, I'm Tom Sennett)
Derrick the Deathfin (Different Tuna)
English Country Tune (Stephen Lavelle)
Fader (Chris Makris)
FEZ (POLYTRON)
Figures In C (Rémi Engel)
Fingle (Game Oven Studios)
FOTONICA (Santa Ragione)
Frozen Synapse (Mode 7 Games)
FTL (Justin Ma & Matthew Davis)
Gemini Rue (Wadjet Eye Games)
GIRP (Bennett Foddy)
Gravity Ghost (Ivy Games)
Gunpoint (Tom Francis, John Roberts and Fabian van Dommelen)
Haunt the House (Tom & Adam Vian)
Hidden in Plain Sight (Adam Spragg Games)
Hundreds (SemiSecret & aeiowu)
I Have 1 Day (Cellar Door Games)
Infested Planet (Rocket Bear Games)
Journal (Locked Door Puzzle)
Labyrinths 2011 (Gyoergy Dudas)
Lair of the Evildoer (Going Loud Studios)
MacGuffin's Curse (Brawsome)
Naught (Blue Shadow Games S.L.)
Nitronic Rush (DigiPen Institute of Technology)
Not Without You (Bad Pilcrow)
Prison Architect (Introversion Software)
Pulse (Cipher Prime Studios, Inc.)
Realm of the Mad God (Wild Shadow Studios & Spry Fox)
Robotany (Singapore-MIT GAMBIT Game Lab)
Scoundrel (Tomato Corp.)
Sissy's Magical Ponycorn Adventure (Untold Entertainment Inc.)
SpaceChem (Zachtronics Industries)
Spelunky (Mossmouth, LLC)
Storyteller (Daniel Benmergui)
Super T.I.M.E Force (Capy)
SWIFT☆STITCH (Sophie Houlden)
Symphony (Empty Clip Studios, Inc.)
THE 2012 IGF PIRATE KART (Pirate Kart Kontributors)
The Bridge (Ty Taylor and Mario Castaneda)
The Dustjacket (Santa Ragione)
The Fourth Wall (DigiPen Institute of Technology)
The Last Rocket (Shaun Inman)
They Bleed Pixels (Spooky Squid Games)
To the Moon (Freebird Games)
Triple Town (Spry Fox)
Where is my Heart? (Die Gute Fabrik)

There were also about 15-20 games that I had played prior to the judging period and so I was able to form an opinion on them as well.

So when people worry that their games aren't getting enough time from the judges, look at this list, and then ask yourself if you would ever like to see me release Monaco.

[PleasingFungus]

I don't mean to seem rude, but it sounds like you're saying you don't actually have the time to judge the games properly, but volunteered anyway.

If the other judges are in the same position, it's no wonder that people are getting upset.

[AndySchatz]

Uhhh, no, I did have time to play.  That's a shit ton of games.  Judges can't play them all, and aren't expected to.

[hanako]

I don't mean to seem rude, but it sounds like you're saying you don't actually have the time to judge the games properly, but volunteered anyway.

If the other judges are in the same position, it's no wonder that people are getting upset.

That's quite a lot more games than judges are actually required to play.

Nobody has the time to play all the games 'properly', certainly not without being paid and provided with free copies of the necessary hardware.... and I daresay your brain would melt before you got through the six hundredth.

[phubans]

Not that all judges are this dedicated, but here is the list of games that I played this entry period long enough to get a very solid feeling for them (30-60 minutes in most cases, a few of the games I spent an entire evening on):

A Day In The Woods (RetroEpic Software)
A Valley Without Wind (Arcen Games)
A Virus Named TOM (Misfits Attic)
Age of Defenders (CUKETA, s. r. o.)
Anomaly Warzone Earth (11 Bit Studios)
ASYNC Corp. (Powerhead Games)
Atom Zombie Smasher (Blendo Games)
Autumn Dynasty (Touch Dimensions)
BitShifter (Plastic Games)
Blocks That Matter (Swing Swing Submarine)
Boomblastica (Thrust Interactive)
Captain Jameson (Farbs Farbs Farbs)
Cattoe Tactics (Doo-Yul Park)
Convergence (Sacred Software)
Dear Esther (thechineseroom)
Deepak Fights Robots (Company? Fuck that, I'm Tom Sennett)
Derrick the Deathfin (Different Tuna)
English Country Tune (Stephen Lavelle)
Fader (Chris Makris)
FEZ (POLYTRON)
Figures In C (Rémi Engel)
Fingle (Game Oven Studios)
FOTONICA (Santa Ragione)
Frozen Synapse (Mode 7 Games)
FTL (Justin Ma & Matthew Davis)
Gemini Rue (Wadjet Eye Games)
GIRP (Bennett Foddy)
Gravity Ghost (Ivy Games)
Gunpoint (Tom Francis, John Roberts and Fabian van Dommelen)
Haunt the House (Tom & Adam Vian)
Hidden in Plain Sight (Adam Spragg Games)
Hundreds (SemiSecret & aeiowu)
I Have 1 Day (Cellar Door Games)
Infested Planet (Rocket Bear Games)
Journal (Locked Door Puzzle)
Labyrinths 2011 (Gyoergy Dudas)
Lair of the Evildoer (Going Loud Studios)
MacGuffin's Curse (Brawsome)
Naught (Blue Shadow Games S.L.)
Nitronic Rush (DigiPen Institute of Technology)
Not Without You (Bad Pilcrow)
Prison Architect (Introversion Software)
Pulse (Cipher Prime Studios, Inc.)
Realm of the Mad God (Wild Shadow Studios & Spry Fox)
Robotany (Singapore-MIT GAMBIT Game Lab)
Scoundrel (Tomato Corp.)
Sissy's Magical Ponycorn Adventure (Untold Entertainment Inc.)
SpaceChem (Zachtronics Industries)
Spelunky (Mossmouth, LLC)
Storyteller (Daniel Benmergui)
Super T.I.M.E Force (Capy)
SWIFT☆STITCH (Sophie Houlden)
Symphony (Empty Clip Studios, Inc.)
THE 2012 IGF PIRATE KART (Pirate Kart Kontributors)
The Bridge (Ty Taylor and Mario Castaneda)
The Dustjacket (Santa Ragione)
The Fourth Wall (DigiPen Institute of Technology)
The Last Rocket (Shaun Inman)
They Bleed Pixels (Spooky Squid Games)
To the Moon (Freebird Games)
Triple Town (Spry Fox)
Where is my Heart? (Die Gute Fabrik)

There were also about 15-20 games that I had played prior to the judging period and so I was able to form an opinion on them as well.

So when people worry that their games aren't getting enough time from the judges, look at this list, and then ask yourself if you would ever like to see me release Monaco.

This list make it look like you played only the well-known indie titles. I'm wondering if any judge even looked at our game...

[Zack Bell]

This list make it look like you played only the well-known indie titles. I'm wondering if any judge even looked at our game...

I was going to mention that as well. It seemed weird that I recognized almost of the titles that you played.

[AndySchatz]

I played games that were:
Randomly assigned to me (about 12)
Had chatter on the judging forums
Were nominated by a number of judges for the categories that I was responsible for
Were ipad/iphone games that had additional codes available
I had heard good things about
Looked particularly interesting from the screenshot/description
Made by developers I knew (this accounts for 6 games, none of whose games were actually nominated) (EDIT: several of these also got enough chatter on the judges forums that I would have looked at them anyways)

In several cases no codes were available so I bought the games on my own.

If I missed a particularly good game, I'm sorry about that!  The fact of the matter is that I only have time to play a limited number of games and I have to choose where to spend my time SOMEHOW.  There's no question that some games could fall through the cracks, and I am concerned that the current jury system could lead to a bias towards well known games.  That said, I do think that in GENERAL the reason that the list of games I looked at is full of well known games is because really great/interesting games tend to get press.  It's rare that an incredible game comes out of the blue!  (for me, FTL was one of these this year, and I'm sad it wasn't nominated)

In any case, just because I didn't play your game doesn't mean it wasn't looked at!

Edit #2: Before y'all jump down my throat, please remember that you folk are probably the MOST informed fans of indie games. Of those 63 games I only had heard of 25 before the judging process began.

EDIT #3: Also note that I was on the Design and Grand Prize juries, so the games I looked at were skewed towards strong contenders in those categories.

[Chris Bell]

In Andy's support, it's worth pointing out that numerous finalists do not appear in Andy's list:
WAY
Proteus
J. S. Joust
Prom Week
Mirage
Lume
Botonicula
Pugs Luv Beats

Though I imagine Andy has played Joust and Proteus already and could nominate them based on experience.

[AndySchatz]

In Andy's support, it's worth pointing out that numerous finalists do not appear in Andy's list:
WAY
Proteus
J. S. Joust
Prom Week
Mirage
Lume
Botonicula
Pugs Luv Beats

Though I imagine Andy has played Joust and Proteus already and could nominate them based on experience.

You are correct! Those are the two games from that list that I had played previously (both at Indiecade)