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[Christian Knudsen]

That's the fun thing there. I personally never expect such projects to be ever professional, or their creators either.

The thing is, this is their full-time job and only source of income. So for all intents and purposes, they are professional game developers. They just haven't acted like it.

Paul: I hear you. I'll only ever sell preorders when I know my game will be finished (and finished soon). Selling the game before it's done does bring a lot of pressure from the players and can really sour the player/developer relationship -- especially if you aren't able to handle that pressure in a professional manner:

http://www.theindiestone.com/lemmy/index.php/2011/10/08/sense-of-entitlement/

[grayfox88]

I just read his blog post and I'm not sure what to think here. I know I personally wouldn't have ranted like that in a post but he's got a valid point. Nobody sees the effort he's actually putting in and I can sympathize with that.

I bought a LAN center when I was 18, and whenever my parents would come by to check it out they would give me flak for not doing enough, not putting enough effort into my business, and accused me of playing games all day.

In reality, I was constantly fixing hardware issues and removing viruses and cleaning spills and replacing keyboards and spending ALL of my time at my business, sleeping on a couch in the back room, paying myself minimum wage to make it happen.

It reminds me of the quote "Once I did bad, that I heard ever. Twice I did good, that I heard never"

[Christian Knudsen]

He receives an email politely asking for a refund. This is what it says on their website:

we need to state that we do not accept refunds officially (original italics), but we will consider it in most if not all individual circumstances

So instead of considering giving a refund or just ignoring the email, he writes a long and whiny blog post and decides to "punish" the emailer by playing Deus Ex instead of working on the game. Forget about acting professional, how about at least acting mature?

[Mikademus]

start gaining commercial success and building a community around your game, you need to be professional.

That's the fun thing there. I personally never expect such projects to be ever professional, or their creators either. That's how I see indie crowd funding system and accept it. Way of doing stuff for non-professional hobbyist some sort. If there are real professionals, let them take the classic route through commercial steps ...and actually, they do. And independent non-professional are free to mess up in spirit of this: 

I don't equate being Indie with being childish and stupidly irresponsible. Being Indie is about not being a serf of the mass-industry, about being your own boss. It should entail fun, as should all life's callings. That is not the same as it should be a frat party. To make an analogy, I love cooking and when I cook I try to have fun in the kitchen. I have strict routines when cooking though: I don't juggle knives, I never place washed utensils with the edge or points up, I don't walk with dangerous things (hot trays, knives) without alerting people I pass or fail to warn people cutting things that I am behind them, etc etc. And development is just another kitchen. Indies should be professional just as much as any other software developer. When you deal with other peoples' money, even more so. Professionalism != no fun. But if you're not professional about how you go about things you will certainly not have fun in the long run, and these guys have learned that. And just as people that are irresponsible in the kitchen quickly learns grief, so did these guys.

So 1982, I think you are blatantly and dangerously wrong. One can never be childish and irresponsible in any serious undertaking. Being Indie is not a licence to be immature and believing that is damaging to our business reputation and livelihood. I don't know how old you are but you sound very young, so let me just tell you that messing up is not fun and lacking professionalism leads to not having fun.

[1982]

One can never be childish and irresponsible in any serious undertaking.

Childish or irresponsible approaches don't even try to be serious.

Being Indie is not a licence to be immature and believing that is damaging to our business reputation and livelihood.

No its not, but why should I expect any more as a customer/fan? It doesn't stop me supporting possible train wrecks. I only expect so called professionalism from established entities. Thou I feel that in many cases professionalism equals boredom (in creative field at least).

I don't know how old you are but you sound very young, so let me just tell you that messing up is not fun and lacking professionalism leads to not having fun.

I feel sorry for you that your view of the world is that non-professionalism leads into not having fun. I just can't see and feel this. Hopefully you find enlightenment in your life. If you are not old like me, you might even have time to do the change.

....And professionalism has nothing to do with making proper backups. Heck I backup my porn.

[Mikademus]

....And professionalism has nothing to do with making proper backups. Heck I backup my porn.

Lol, sorry for the direct confrontation, and thanks for the disarming porn comment! But I'd say that making proper backups is one of the very minimal definitions of profesionalism

[JWK5]

I don't know how old you are but you sound very young, so let me just tell you that messing up is not fun and lacking professionalism leads to not having fun.

I feel sorry for you that your view of the world is that non-professionalism leads into not having fun. I just can't see and feel this. Hopefully you find enlightenment in your life. If you are not old like me, you might even have time to do the change.

You're both being pretty ridiculous.

Anyways, professionalism means to do something in a professional manner and it is generally a trait you acquire over time through experience and learning. I think the more serious issue in this case (the Project Zomboid fiasco) seems to be the displayed lack of integrity.

You have to know that if you take money from people under the pretense that they will eventually get a product in return and then you don't deliver (for whatever the reasons) people are going to be upset. If I pre-ordered a game at GameStop only be told later "Sorry, the game was canceled. You don't get your money back." I'd be pretty pissed.

If 'indies' expect a mainstream level of respect then to a degree they have to be held to a certain level of mainstream obligation, at least when it comes to the consumer-product relationship. Once you accept money from someone (for a product, not a donation) it is your responsibility to either get them what they paid for or return to them what they invested. I don't think 'indies' should have the luxury to bail out on that obligation any more than I think mainstream developers should. 'Indie' does not equal freedom from responsibility.

[st33d]

http://www.theindiestone.com/lemmy/index.php/2011/10/08/sense-of-entitlement/

To be blunt: What a fucking knobhead.

Case in point: A mate of mine last weekend said I should get into the whole microtransaction thing because there are "mugs" out there that actually shovel money into those things. I said that sort of work was boring and I was more interested in making fun games.

But that's not what I really felt.

I simply feel, as a rational human being that understands the nature of social efficiency, that treating people like shit is bad.

If you treat people like shit, you are a fucking ignorant moron. Regardless of how many morons you yourself encounter, fucking man-up and don't be a moron yourself.

[1982]

If 'indies' expect a mainstream level of respect then to a degree they have to be held to a certain level of mainstream obligation, at least when it comes to the consumer-product relationship. Once you accept money from someone (for a product, not a donation) it is your responsibility to either get them what they paid for or return to them what they invested. I don't think 'indies' should have the luxury to bail out on that obligation anymore than I think mainstream developers should. 'Indie' does not equal freedom from responsibility.

Yes here is the main point that being professional, or non-professional, cheating and doing morally wrong is always bad thing. Either money involved or not. But I still feel that you can be total train wreck and still not hurt anyones feelings That is what I try to achieve in my life at least... But yes, other peoples money should not be included in such endeavors. Most people don't take these scenarios as lightly as I.

[Mikademus]

If 'indies' expect a mainstream level of respect then to a degree they have to be held to a certain level of mainstream obligation, at least when it comes to the consumer-product relationship. Once you accept money from someone (for a product, not a donation) it is your responsibility to either get them what they paid for or return to them what they invested. I don't think 'indies' should have the luxury to bail out on that obligation any more than I think mainstream developers should. 'Indie' does not equal freedom from responsibility.

I think that is about exactly what I too wrote. And I appreciate your comment about the integrity aspect of the situation.

[JWK5]

I think that is about exactly what I too wrote.

I typed it with my toes for extra dramatic impact.

[Superb Joe]

this guy seems like a big pussy, i bet i could take him like that snivelling rat man took his laptop

[Mikademus]

I think that is about exactly what I too wrote.

I typed it with my toes for extra dramatic impact.

Oh, JWK5, will these one-upmanships between us never cease? We're like two titans locked in an eternal Sisyphean struggle that no one can ever win.

[JWK5]

I think that is about exactly what I too wrote.

I typed it with my toes for extra dramatic impact.

Oh, JWK5, will these one-upmanships between us never cease? We're like two titans locked in an eternal Sisyphean struggle that no one can ever win.

At first I thought that said "syphilis struggle", I was about to say if you're going to proposition me you'd better have a pre-order receipt for Skyrim in your hand.

[Mikademus]

I think that is about exactly what I too wrote.

I typed it with my toes for extra dramatic impact.

Oh, JWK5, will these one-upmanships between us never cease? We're like two titans locked in an eternal Sisyphean struggle that no one can ever win.

At first I thought that said "syphilis struggle", I was about to say if you're going to proposition me you'd better have a pre-order receipt for Skyrim in your hand.

Elder Scrolls pre-order: check. Syphilis: fail. Sorry, I fulfilled most requirements but failed the "positive to at least one major STD" one. Have you tried Cactus lately?