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[Fission Mailed]

Haven't got too far in, but I'm really enjoying it so far. I'm a dark elf, and I hope to take the whole archery/stealth route since I heard the melee combat wasn't the best. It really aggravates me though when I let my brother play and he plays it in third-person mode. Something about third-person just seems off for this game.

[Castle]

that's my least favorite part of riding the (flying) horses. Mandatory third person x_x

[Ashkin]

I'm a khajit or whatever. Going the stealthy dude path, practicing one-handed combat (daggers) and archery. I make a terrible thief because I'm always afraid I'll get caught when I try to steal stuff
Does any theif actually use a companion? I think Lydia's just blowing my cover.
Also, is there any way to discern the level of an enemy? I'm not sure if I'm way out of my league or I just suck.

[Fission Mailed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YOxVjbGvUpI

[J-Snake]

Pretty much my points as well lol. Also very little of the game's content is tied to the quests (other than the quests themselves obv). This what differentiates Skyrim and the other Bethsoft games from something like Gothic. After you've completed the intro you can see all of the game's world, clear out all the dungeons, get the best, gear, max out your skills etc. without ever completing a single quest.

Note that I am referring to Gothic2 in particular (Gothic4 etc. is another game made by different people with no taste):

The problem with people is that they think they have a sophisticated new age game and get hyped up. But there were some games a decade ago which were more sophisticated. Only no one knows them.

So that is your understanding of "content". You can collect a bazillion of goodies outside a quest in Gothic2, too. First off, Gothic2 is almost a complete coherent simulation on its own. Do what you want. There are hardly any artificial limitations. And because of that it is a game with consequences. You will quickly learn to respect your environment. You cannot start off and kill a bear easily like in Skyrim. Because obviously, it is a strong animal.

You have a larger environment in Skyrim. Fine, collect what you want, visit new areas but what is the motivation to move on and do all this? The combat-side is no concern. And literally every npc in this game is a monotonous dead-boring text by voice-acters who have no feel for the game at all. The npc-design is unauthentic and poor.
In Gothic2 the npc-networking is a lot more sophisticated. And despite having only few voice-actors they perfectly feel the game (original in german). The game is serious but still provides some humor in addition, because the npc's are more authentic.
Nothing like that will you find in Skyrim.

But what am I talking about, here is the ultimate reason why Gothic2 beats everything similar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJA3n4Tee_s&feature=channel_video_title

I recommend you to play Gothic2 - Night of the raven.

[C.A. Sinner]

lol i like how you're immediately condescending and assume i havent played the game

also consequences ARE limitations. the whole point of a sandbox game is that there are no or very few permanent consequences. if you choose not to quest in gothic 2, you quickly run out of things to do. monsters don't respawn unless you quest, you need trainers to level up certain skills (which is also tied to quests) etc. a whole lot of the game's content is somehow tied to the story, unlike the bethesda games.

also i never said that skyrim is "sophisticated" (it's pretty much the exact opposite) or "better" than gothic 2 (it isn't), so at least half of your post doesn't have anything to do with what i posted.

[J-Snake]

Not sure how serious you are about it. By constricting the consequences you are limiting depth. So what's the point of having an rpg with poor amount of consequences?

My assumptions are always correct, son:P

[C.A. Sinner]

yeah i'm not saying skyrim is deep either. it's basically a casual game. depth or quality of content don't factor into the particular point i'm trying to make at all.

just to clarify my position: i don't think skyrim is a masterpiece or w/e, it's a flawed game (bad combat, wooden npcs etc) that does one thing (loose sandbox gameplay) particularly well.

also regarding what the point of making a game like skyrim is: i enjoy deep, complex hardcore games as much as the next guy, but i also think it's important for more laid back games to exist. the games i'm playing most right now are dark souls, ADOM, dodonpachi daifukkatsu and dwarf fortress. when i feel like playing videogames but don't feel like i'm to up to the kind of mental investment those games require, skyrim is the game i fall back on at the moment.

[Dragonmaw]

Skyrim also has better combat than the other Elder Scrolls games.

Also you can't "easily kill a bear" in Skyrim. Bears fucking maul you to death. For a while all you will be fighting will be zombies and wolves. Trolls, bears, cougars, etc are all far too difficult until you have the right set of enchants and armor and weaponry.

Also, there's plenty of motivation to move on and take on new dungeons, explore new areas, and do new quests. The quest and dungeon design is immensely appealing, and I am always delighted to simply wander into a random dungeon and start ruining some days. There's a strong narrative that pertains to each town, and the main story itself straddles a nice line between "nordic power fantasy" and "cliche'd western epic."

Not to say that Skyrim is the deepest game ever, just that it offers something different within the same space than Gothic does. Gothic is focused around the hardcore RPG nerd, and Skyrim is focused around normal RPG nerds. Not that I would play Gothic if I'm in the mood for a hardcore RPG; I like it but I feel like it suffers from the same problems that Skyrim does. Stiff combat, wooden characters.

Gimme Witcher ehueheuhuehe

The gist of what I am saying is you are being extremely condescending for no reason.

[Faust06]

just to clarify my position: i don't think skyrim is a masterpiece or w/e, it's a flawed game (bad combat, wooden npcs etc) that does one thing (loose sandbox gameplay) particularly well.

I think people are too harsh on the NPCs. They're done well enough, the only thing that bothers me is constant redundant commentary while walking past them (including from followers). The combat in Gothic doesn't seem much more "fun" either, for what it's worth.

I've played much more of Skyrim recently. It's quite compulsive, but not always for the right reasons. I was delighted by a few of the dungeons, which is a good motivator to keep playing. But like most other "games of numbers" (referring to an article someone linked on this forum before), mostly there's a compulsion to collect and explore everything, maximize the stats. This is okay if the foundation, gameplay, stands well on its own. I think it's kind of shaky, in a mindless, redundant kind of way, but by that same token it's no worse than the combat in a game like Diablo or WoW (it's better actually, though slower).

My appreciation for exploration of the landscape grew, and I dig a few of the dungeons. I maintain that the gameplay is mostly stale, which is what I value most, but that seems to be a symptom of rpgs anyway.

[J-Snake]

The video already showed what Gothic does best, so any argument is invalid.

[Faust06]

Gothic is not immune to criticism on gameplay and the like just because it has some supposedly superior voiceover. I wasn't discussing that. As a non-German Anglo-Saxon, I couldn't tell what's good German or bad German voiceover so I assume the video fails to show me "what it does best".

[J-Snake]

You should learn German, just to enjoy the game's charm.

[C.A. Sinner]

bro, characters in gothic (except arcania but let's just forget about that) are anything BUT wooden. it always weirds me out when people say gothic is a generic fantasy gam. gimmy said the same in another thread. i guess it must be the english translations ruining the series' unique charm.

edit: ninja'd by j-snake

[BlueSweatshirt]

Well, I'd say the voiceovers were pretty good and I don't really know german. I just say this from the amount of expression they seemed to put into their tone of voice, which is something I think a lot of voiceovers in Skyrim lacked in. How good the writing is, I don't know!

Also: why the heck does Skyrim need to be put into a versus match against Gothic? This isn't IGN trying to get more ad hits, so what's the point? Especially if you guys descend into being fallacious, inflammatory, and condescending about it.