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[C.A. Sinner]

Higher production values generally mean a game with more meat on its bones – an involving story, a wider variety of challenges that keep you challenged right up to the end, and just more game than you're likely to find in something made in Flash/for your phone/hosted by ConglomoWebGames.

Both Braid and Portal have VERY little content though. A lot less than you'd find in popular flash puzzle gams.

[kato9]

This thread is making me nervous. I'm working on a Flash game with the intent on creating something smart and atmospheric like these game you guys have mentioned. I'd like to think the people who play Flash games would like something like this as a change of pace from the norm - but maybe the audience just isn't that interested in smart or 'arty' games...

Then again it's probably not wise to generalize 'people who play flash games'. I feel like most internet users have played at least one flash game in their life right?

[rek]

Higher production values generally mean a game with more meat on its bones – an involving story, a wider variety of challenges that keep you challenged right up to the end, and just more game than you're likely to find in something made in Flash/for your phone/hosted by ConglomoWebGames.

Both Braid and Portal have VERY little content though. A lot less than you'd find in popular flash puzzle gams.

But what content they have is quite varied and/or allows for greater and greater complexity, which means the challenge is there. They're also the type of game you can beat and then beat a little differently the next time – rewind here instead of there, pop out of the wall instead of the ceiling, etc. The old "a minute to learn, a lifetime to master" factor. You aren't going to beat any level of Pursuit of Hat differently the next time through (at least from what I saw of the first ~15 levels).

[Reives]

I think high-concept has a lot to do with the success of Portal and Braid as well. There are tons of games that are fun and interesting to play, but if you can hook the player on some point of interest with just 10 seconds of non-playable concept pitch, then it makes a whole world of difference since getting people to step through the door is often the hardest part.

[mirosurabu]

Flash audience is a heterogeneous audience. If you have a good game, you'll certainly get some sort of approval. There is no doubt about that.

For example, Newgrounds and Kongregate audiences are quite fond of "arty" games. The tolerance level for "arty" games is so high they will swallow yet another Braid-like no problem! Even a very basic art-game can get high rating and millions of views on any of these two portals.

However, if you step outside of Newgrounds and Kongregate, there will be a lot less approval for these kinds of games. In fact, that applies to any kind of game that deviates from the usual "viral bullshit" norm.

Basically, flash market does reward quality. It's just that virality is far more rewarded, which explains why majority of flash games lack in quality.

[C.A. Sinner]

Higher production values generally mean a game with more meat on its bones – an involving story, a wider variety of challenges that keep you challenged right up to the end, and just more game than you're likely to find in something made in Flash/for your phone/hosted by ConglomoWebGames.

Both Braid and Portal have VERY little content though. A lot less than you'd find in popular flash puzzle gams.

But what content they have is quite varied and/or allows for greater and greater complexity, which means the challenge is there. They're also the type of game you can beat and then beat a little differently the next time – rewind here instead of there, pop out of the wall instead of the ceiling, etc. The old "a minute to learn, a lifetime to master" factor. You aren't going to beat any level of Pursuit of Hat differently the next time through (at least from what I saw of the first ~15 levels).

I found Braid and Portal a lot less challenging than Time Fuck (a flash game) and Lup Salad (not flash but low production values and tons of levels).

Also yeah you can play the levels "a little differently" if you're really into that but it doesn't change the fact that both are linear games with single-solution puzzles.

[rek]

But what content they have is quite varied and/or allows for greater and greater complexity, which means the challenge is there. They're also the type of game you can beat and then beat a little differently the next time – rewind here instead of there, pop out of the wall instead of the ceiling, etc. The old "a minute to learn, a lifetime to master" factor. You aren't going to beat any level of Pursuit of Hat differently the next time through (at least from what I saw of the first ~15 levels).

I found Braid and Portal a lot less challenging than Time Fuck (a flash game) and Lup Salad (not flash but low production values and tons of levels).

I didn't say challenge alone was the determining factor; I actually said the opposite, that there are multiple factors working in tandem and they can generally be attributed to a level of production value you don't find in every game.

Also yeah you can play the levels "a little differently" if you're really into that but it doesn't change the fact that both are linear games with single-solution puzzles.

Most games are – I'm not sure why that needs to be pointed out – but there are some you have more fun playing, and replaying, than others.

[stevesan]

I think high-concept has a lot to do with the success of Portal and Braid as well. There are tons of games that are fun and interesting to play, but if you can hook the player on some point of interest with just 10 seconds of non-playable concept pitch, then it makes a whole world of difference since getting people to step through the door is often the hardest part.

Very true as well. The sheer coolness of infinite time travel and arbitrary portalling made the two games buzz-generators from even watching 10 seconds of their trailers.

[stevesan]

This thread is making me nervous. I'm working on a Flash game with the intent on creating something smart and atmospheric like these game you guys have mentioned. I'd like to think the people who play Flash games would like something like this as a change of pace from the norm - but maybe the audience just isn't that interested in smart or 'arty' games...

Then again it's probably not wise to generalize 'people who play flash games'. I feel like most internet users have played at least one flash game in their life right?

Hehe no please don't let the stereotyping of Flash game players discourage you. I can think of a few examples of really atmospheric Flash games that succeeded, such as "The Company of Myself", "Continuity", and that one game with lights that escapes me. So, while it's working against you a bit, I think it's perfectly possible to make a tasteful game in Flash. Go forth and kick ass!

Now, some Flash games actually get turned into full-fledged games. That light game (again..forget its name..argh) is actually being re-developed for PSN now. So I guess the question we're asking here is, what makes that stand out from other Flash puzzle games?

I think we've established that atmosphere, marketability (which has to do with the "wow" factor of the concept itself), length (hopefully without filler), and production values are all important for a "larger" release game (ie. something you can make more money and get more recognition out of).

[vinheim3]

Right mix of tmosphere is definitely necessary.

Having a unique concept helps a lot (but you can take an overused, beaten-to-death concept and make an extremely popular game out of it because, again, polish and atmosphere can play huge roles).

Length doesn't seem to make any difference about how much the game can sell. I mean, even with reviews and descriptions, you never really know how long a game is until you play it (Tales of Symphonia is extremely long, VVVVVV is extremely short).

Production value is a great way to hire those people who can polish the game (more detailed graphics, better-orchestrated music, programmers who can put in better effects, etc). But even people with no money can make a beautifully-polished game. Simple things like text fading in and out, menus swooping in from outside of the screen, voice acting, cutscenes, points attained hovering above character's head before disappearing (I think some Legend of Zelda games had the latest rupee attained hover above your head).

[Paul Eres]

MARKETING

this is the best answer

if portal and braid were not marketed to high heaven, they wouldn't stand out from the huge number of puzzle games that fewer people know about, like spacechem

this is easier to appreciate if you consider the example of angry birds

i feel that a lot of people scratch their heads and theorize about "why does this game do better than this other game? what's the difference between the two *games* that made one a success and the other not a success?" when the answer is that it really has nothing to do with the attributes of the games at all, but with forces external to the games

that is particularly notable in how well different games do in different countries; because they are often marketed differently in different countries, you often see a wide difference in how well games sell in different countries. and sure it could be the "culture" but the culture of the UK is pretty similar to the culture of america (relatively, i mean), and yet games which sell well in one place don't often sell well in the other

[moi]

I don't believe what I read, I just skimmed the thread but I think I read some people saying that flash games had more content than portal (I won't mention braid because I never played it)
Obviously some people are either delusional or extremely biased toward 2D minigames around here.
also someone else saying that marketing was all that differentiated them and someone else agreeing.
this is ridiculous.

[bart_the_13th]

This picture alone is more than compelling to me

[stevesan]

I don't believe what I read, I just skimmed the thread but I think I read some people saying that flash games had more content than portal (I won't mention braid because I never played it)
Obviously some people are either delusional or extremely biased toward 2D minigames around here.
also someone else saying that marketing was all that differentiated them and someone else agreeing.
this is ridiculous.

Welcome to the internet

Yeah, marketing helps a lot, but only to an extent. At the end of the day word of mouth helped both Braid and Portal a ton more than raw marketing power did.

And.....you really need to play Braid!

[stevesan]

This picture alone is more than compelling to me

Haha yeah. I always thought it was interesting that they bothered making the infinite-mirrors thing work in-game, yet it was never really necessary for the game to "work." Yet, it was undeniable just how cool that was.