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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperArt (Moderator: JWK5)itt: good character designs
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shig
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« Reply #160 on: February 08, 2012, 04:07:50 AM »

tekken

Nope sorry all of those are terrible.
even king?
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zombieonion
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« Reply #161 on: February 08, 2012, 09:59:16 AM »

I think, by genre, fighting games have the best character designs on average. This is probably because the first trend-setting games had pretty fucking excellent design.

Also I am pretty sure the most important reason why nobody cares about Virtua Fighter is because they have the most uninteresting characters in history.

I think you are wrong on many accounts.
Character design in fighting games should answer questions, not raise them. Why?
In those games, most of the storytelling is done either in the game handbook, in cinematics inbetween fights, and by the moves characters do. In a different genre, you can get away with asking more questions than answering them. In an RPG with exploration the player might come across elements later that explain strange character design choices. This isn't the case with fighting games, Quake3/Unreal games. All the questions need to be answered directly. Players need to be either told stuff directly, or to understand through gameplay or exploration.
Someone explain to me what the hell Dhalsim is supposed to be? Or Blanka? Or Bison?

What the hell is Vega from Street Fighter? I haven't read any tie-in comics, and that movie with Van Damme sure as hell isn't worth mentioning.
Vegas character is very vague and undefined. Is there information in the booklet that comes with the game?
Why does he wear a mask? Why does he dress like a matador, and fight with that claw? Nobody else has weapons in that game.

Copied from wikipedia:

Quote
Vega was designed by Akira Yasuda, and was initially conceived as a brief sketch of a masked man in a ripped shirt with long, frizzy hair.[1] As development progressed the design evolved into a large, unarmed man, retaining the mask and dressed as a matador. The design was changed again, revolving around the concept of a foreign soldier with a cross on his vest and armed with a broadsword, while still retaining the mask.[2] This design was eventually replaced in turn with another concept, a masked ninja in a bodysuit armed with a long metal claw on his right hand.[1] Ultimately the character's finalized appearance was a culmination of all of these, incorporating various aspects of each into the finished design.

Does this sound like a good design to you? It doesn't to me.
Vega is iconic now, because the design is so old. Same goes for most of the weirdos in the roster of Street Fighter, and most of the weirdos in any classic fighting game.
Yoshimitsu is a cyborg ninja and King is a wereleopard. No seriously, those designs are terrible.

I'm glad my shitty attitude is annoying you. I'm getting through that wall of fanboyism that exists between you and good practice of character design.

Why I ask for a deconstruction? Because I haven't played the games that you refer to. Characters might be weird outside them, but make sense in-game.
Morrigan from Dragon Age makes no sense whatsoever outside her setting, but in it she is a hippie witchdaughter who lives in the woods with her crazy mother. The outfit, the magic she uses, the everything about her works there. That's why you need to motivate why a character design is good. Stop getting offended and take criticism. Is this a game development community or is this a circlejerk of anime fanbois?

EdgeOfProphecy, good talk about Pyramidhead, deconstructing like a designer.
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michaelplzno
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« Reply #162 on: February 08, 2012, 12:50:56 PM »

zombieonion: I played Street Fighter when I was in its primary target demographic and Vega is well designed. (I guess according to wiki it was done with an... interesting... process.) It was clear to me even as a child that these were the fighters of various countries and they (almost racistly) represented their homelands. (At least the American wasn't some fat fast food munching guy who compensated for it by using a gun.) But if you are looking for deep nuanced design that answers questions with its character design, IDK if a game called "Street Fighter" is really what you are looking for.

It could be interesting to design some kind of deeper meaning into a fighting game's characters, but the genera isn't a cerebral one.

I mean, when you watch Terminator do you expect some kind of deep subtext, or just an awesome action movie? Which is why the Terminator is a good character design:

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HöllenKobold
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« Reply #163 on: February 08, 2012, 12:56:05 PM »

he's basically a derivative of tiger mask



so his most iconic trait is from something else. the design otherwise is adequate i guess. it's a bit odd because of his boots and the random belts strewn on both arms.
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mankoon
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« Reply #164 on: February 08, 2012, 01:24:50 PM »

I love Tekken but I admit the character designs are not the best. They're very basic. Who do I actually think has a good design... Lili (except for her guest artist costume...), yoshimitsu sometimes, Dragonov,  Xiaoyu.


( side note... who wants to play tekken?)

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michaelplzno
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« Reply #165 on: February 08, 2012, 02:08:07 PM »



Someone linked to a character design interview blog and while browsing I remembered this gem from my childhood.
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shig
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« Reply #166 on: February 08, 2012, 03:43:09 PM »

lotsofthings

---
Two things to keep in mind when talking about Street Fighter characters:

i)SF's universe is more like a saturday morning cartoon's universe than anything realistic.
ii)Some characters were initially designed to be secret boss characters. They had to be significantly more badass than the rest of the cast, and could get away with being a lot more mysterious.

Dhalsim is an indian mystic. In action/fighting movies, especially old kung fu ones, there's often that one character who isn't really very physically strong or skilled in martial arts but compensates with magic shit. All those elements are easily indentifiable in Dhalsim at the very first glance: He looks relatively weak, his clothes have no influence of traditional martial arts uniforms and his movements are all unorthodox and bizarre and you can immediately notice his weird yoga-voodoo theme.

Same goes for Blanka and Vega: Blanka is a wild beast-man, Vega is an assassin and a matador.

You can say you don't like them or they are ugly, but the designs are "functional"- They tell you the general archetype and theme of the character, they quickly recognizable and distinct from each other.





---
If you dislike the fact that the many past iterations of a character influence the final version, then I suggest you stop reading about character design altogether. At the very least, the dumbest early designs tell the authors what features they should avoid adding to the finalized character.

Reusing parts from previous iteration is only possible if these parts fit the vision the authors have for the finalized version.

This is something that also happens in the coding of game engines, and the writing of narratives or movie scripts-- Pieces of failed projects can be reused with just minor tweaks.





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"Yoshimitsu is a cyborg ninja and King is a wereleopard. No seriously, those designs are terrible."

LOL
King is a wereleopard, therefore bad design. This is your awesome insight on character design. This is how you're going to break our walls of fanboyism, open our eyes and save this thread from the ignorance of everyone who is unfortunately not you.
Funny thing is, influence/homage/ripoff of Tiger Mask apart, King is one of the most perfectly functional character designs out there.
(I'm ignoring Yoshimitsu because I didn't mention him.)

And what the fuck is this about there being a wall of fanboyism in the first place? What does it matter?
Ok, bro, listen to me: My idea of casual streetwear is a red sleeveless gi and a bright blonde wig. My only pillow is a Chun Li body pillow. Whenever I have an orgasm I yell SHORYUKEN.
See? I am the dumbest, worst fanboy in the world. Did you win? Does that make your arguments more correct?

Besides there is a good possibility that what caused us to like a certain game - to become fans- in the first place, was the good character design.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 03:58:24 PM by shig » Logged
ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #167 on: February 08, 2012, 03:49:47 PM »

mortal kombat has the best designs of any fighting game

proof:



notice how you can tell which character is which when he's pretending to be characters based on almost nothing
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i wanna be the guy
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« Reply #168 on: February 08, 2012, 04:43:29 PM »

"Yoshimitsu is a cyborg ninja and King is a wereleopard. No seriously, those designs are terrible."
yo i just noticed this

i'm pretty sure yoshimitsu is actually the sword. yoshimitsu will only allow those worthy of the name yoshimitsu to wield him or something along those lines


the actual character isn't a cyborg ninja either so uh
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mankoon
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« Reply #169 on: February 08, 2012, 05:07:05 PM »

"Besides there is a good possibility that what caused us to like a certain game - to become fans- in the first place, was the good character design."

In some cases but not the case of tekken. The graphics were terrible when I first started playing. I knew Nina was just another sonia(MK) and sofia(Toshinden) but the game was fun through it's mechanics. I love Tekken's move style designs the best. 

Also I love Soul Caliber's daddy : Weapon Lord. I'm a fan of those designs.

There's a ton of muscle on the screen at any given time but the designs can be told apart quite nicely and were memorable.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 05:17:14 PM by mankoon » Logged

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« Reply #170 on: February 08, 2012, 05:18:36 PM »

a pretty dumb post
so wait, you are saying that the design of a fighting game character should automatically answer any questions about them, then you point out that characters like King and Vega are bad because they have strange elements about them that cannot be explained in their character designs. following that logic, you are literally saying that fighting game characters cannot have anything creative or fantastical about their designs because that would require explanation. that is the stupidest shit i have heard
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« Reply #171 on: February 08, 2012, 05:23:00 PM »

I don't understand why they should answer "questions."

Fighting games aren't about story. Your criteria is irrelevant to the needs of a fighting game character. Designs in fighting games depend more on quirkiness or being iconic. It's the quirk that attracts an audience.

If anything, they should at least justify or embellish their movesets.
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i wanna be the guy
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« Reply #172 on: February 08, 2012, 05:25:32 PM »

no see fighting games need to have character depth and development that will rival those found in jrpgs okay thernz

okay

do you understand



do you
understand
do you understand how important story is to me when im playing a game that requires i win this fighting tournament
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HöllenKobold
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« Reply #173 on: February 08, 2012, 05:29:58 PM »

Slam story into everything. Make games art.
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« Reply #174 on: February 08, 2012, 05:39:07 PM »

I like the Street Fighter and KOF designs, but not so much Tekken... I dunno, they feel like the Jersey Shore equivalents of SF and KOF. Lots of greasy hair, bad tattoos, and Ed Hardy type clothing designs.

And I think SF/Capcom fighters in particular benefited from starting in 2d and having concept artists like Akiman, Nishimura, and Bengus behind them. Shinkiro is also amazing.


Akiman


Nishimura


Bengus


Shinkiro
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i wanna be the guy
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« Reply #175 on: February 08, 2012, 05:44:26 PM »


Shinkiro
"i swear to god i have never had to shit so bad in my entire life"
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Derek
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« Reply #176 on: February 08, 2012, 06:03:01 PM »

He looks pretty happy about it, actually. ^__^
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« Reply #177 on: February 08, 2012, 06:13:56 PM »

Quote
no see fighting games need to have character depth and development that will rival those found in jrpgs okay
but... they already do
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« Reply #178 on: February 08, 2012, 06:21:30 PM »

Akira Toriyama





edit: MARS-1

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i wanna be the guy
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« Reply #179 on: February 08, 2012, 06:26:21 PM »

Quote
no see fighting games need to have character depth and development that will rival those found in jrpgs okay
but... they already do
shush your face that was the joke
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