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[MoritzPGKatz]

Tracker formats still have a demo/retro niche, but most people consider them obsolete for very good reasons.

What are those reasons?

You answered that yourself: the file size benefit is pretty insignificant when clients look for realistic music with samples and recordings. Which is mostly the case, except in the afore-mentioned retro niche.
About interactive music, audio programmers and engineers mostly use FMOD, Wwise and the like these days. We've come a long way since iMuse!

Don't get me wrong though, I love trackers. Scream Tracker was the first music software I used back in the early 90's on an old 386DX, and I think it's really cool there's still some development on that sector.

But neutrally speaking, anything you can do with trackers, you can do with sequencing DAWs. Plus recording actual instrumental and voice takes.
And that's the whole point why trackers will become more and more of a niche/retro thing that had its high in game music in the late 90's/early 00's when titles like Deus Ex or Unreal made use of it. (thanks for the great soundtracks, M.C.A.!)

[sublinimal]

I'm hoping to see a tracker renaissance sometime soon. In fact, it's hard for me to see why they were phased out in the first place. Something like Renoise is comparable to any DAW with its powerful DSP and automation, but free trackers fell off the technology bandwagon at some point. Modules aren't widely supported either, unlike the ubiquitous mp3s (which is a bit of a feedback loop: when modules become less supported, new developers have less incentive to support modules). But provided you do have an compatible audio library, there are really only benefits to using modules over mp3s.

Modules are tiny, yes, due to the way instruments are recycled. But my main fascination with them is that they're open: anyone can take a song, see how it's made, even remix it on the fly. And when it comes to games, you can have control over individual tracks to create interactive music - although this was never used to its full potential.

[XRA]

well, I've been thinking I will try using XM for the ambient tracks in MOABD.  Been using Renoise to re-familiarize myself with tracking.  The reason for wanting to go with XM is because of the ease in which I can mute channels, manipulate playback and trigger events off pattern data. 

If I was trying to do that with compressed audio tracks I'd end up with bloated file size and minimal control. So I'm hoping that the tradeoff of using higher quality samples in the XM file (larger file size) will be worth it for the added flexibility...

Maybe the next best thing would be supporting compressed samples in OGG or MP3 format, unless they do already...

I might still end up with some compressed tracks too that the XM stuff is overlayed on.

[Brother Android]

You answered that yourself: the file size benefit is pretty insignificant when clients look for realistic music with samples and recordings. Which is mostly the case, except in the afore-mentioned retro niche.

true... however, that niche does happen to be where most people on this forum do their work. My impression is we're discussing things in the context of small-team independent games, though perhaps i misunderstood.

[Paul Eres]

the last semi-mainstream game that i can recall using them was 'uplink' by introversion. i think they should be used more, they are pretty cool and allow some things that the normal mp3/ogg/wav format does not, such as disabling or enabling particular instruments in reaction to the gameplay (the way getting on yoshi would add in the percussion track in super mario world). i feel that if you want to make your music more interactive, then ogg/mp3 isn't as suitable for that need

my freeware games alphasix and the fedora spade games used them, but my commercial games immortal defense and saturated dreamers do not

[MoritzPGKatz]

You answered that yourself: the file size benefit is pretty insignificant when clients look for realistic music with samples and recordings. Which is mostly the case, except in the afore-mentioned retro niche.

true... however, that niche does happen to be where most people on this forum do their work. My impression is we're discussing things in the context of small-team independent games, though perhaps i misunderstood.

I'm not composing for very large (or well-funded) teams either at the moment, and most of my clients are asking for tracks with 'real' instruments, be it a recorded guitar, orchestral scores or a realistic-sounding piano, or even vocals. I'd find it hard to do any of that with a tracker.

Everyone should use what tools they like best, but when I collaborate with other musicians or present my work, I stick to sequencers and deliver waveforms. It's pretty much the standard.

the last semi-mainstream game that i can recall using them was 'uplink' by introversion. i think they should be used more, they are pretty cool and allow some things that the normal mp3/ogg/wav format does not, such as disabling or enabling particular instruments in reaction to the gameplay (the way getting on yoshi would add in the percussion track in super mario world). i feel that if you want to make your music more interactive, then ogg/mp3 isn't as suitable for that need

Actually, my main project makes much use of interactive music. (can't tell you much, NDA secrecy )
Let me just say that it is indeed possible (and not much more of a hassle) to implement waveform music that changes depending on what's happening in the game, just like you described.
I mentioned iMUSE before, Lucasarts' interactive music streaming engine, which was introduced 20 years ago with Monkey Island 2. More recent examples would be the Elder Scrolls series starting with Morrowind.

[DavidCaruso]

I like the tracker format for composing more than piano roll or w/e, probably because I'm not too well versed in music theory so I'm coming at this from a programmer's perspective. Except for file size I don't know if there are any real huge benefits to the actual module formats themselves, though. That's not to say they can't sound good anyway, see e.g. Deus Ex.

[1982]

You answered that yourself: the file size benefit is pretty insignificant when clients look for realistic music with samples and recordings. Which is mostly the case, except in the afore-mentioned retro niche.

Tracker music / electronic has nothing to do with retro niche. I could as well say that most of the modern VG music is all about retro romantic music niche.

[MoritzPGKatz]

You answered that yourself: the file size benefit is pretty insignificant when clients look for realistic music with samples and recordings. Which is mostly the case, except in the afore-mentioned retro niche.

Tracker music / electronic has nothing to do with retro niche. I could as well say that most of the modern VG music is all about retro romantic music niche.

Guess you could say that!
But then you'd be missing the point that most tracker music takes its retro-nostalgia from times where VGM was restricted by filesize, bit resolution, sampling frequency etc. - while the increase in orchestral 'post-romantic' music in games is caused by film music's influence and the easy availability of tools to create music like that.
Sure, you can do 'modern' productions with the trackers available today (like Renoise), but there are still some major restrictions in the tracker format, the biggest one is not being able to record audio properly. Then there's comping, automation, notation, warping... the list goes on.

Again, I'm not trying to talk anyone out of their tools. OP asked how common tracker formats are: I'm just pointing out the fact that music done with sequencers (and that includes most electronica, by the way) greatly outweighs music done with trackers. Even in VGM, and even in indie developing teams.

[1982]

Guess you could say that!
But then you'd be missing the point that most tracker music takes its retro-nostalgia from times where VGM was restricted by filesize, bit resolution, sampling frequency etc. - while the increase in orchestral 'post-romantic' music in games is caused by film music's influence and the easy availability of tools to create music like that.
Sure, you can do 'modern' productions with the trackers available today (like Renoise), but there are still some major restrictions in the tracker format, the biggest one is not being able to record audio properly. Then there's comping, automation, notation, warping... the list goes on.

I am not missing the point, I say that 99% modern tracker music takes its inspiration from old VGM. And they solely take the inspiration from technical aspects, and NOT from the actual compositions (which I think are in many cases exceptionally great). It is comparable to situation where live instrument band takes it inspiration from 1920's jazz recordings, but they only reproduce the "bad audio quality" from eras album recordings while actually ignoring the original music. I don't have a lot respect for technical execution being absolute value. That is wrong with modern tracker/retro music, but the blame is not in tracker software itself.

This problem is quite bad in modern film scoring as well, and seems like VGM is imitating the problem. It is not better situation than tracker-retroism. Film music (orchestral) culture has quite blatantly being dumbing down whole genre of classical music, making it sort of disposal bubblegum music. There is no reason for video game culture to imitate that crap.

Either being SID-chip or classical orchestra. It is all about compositions and experiments and what you do with the tools. It is all about making great music.

Like said, modular music is perfect format for complex music story telling in games. Being able to real time mix and re mix the tracks and loops. That gives value for tracker composing itself, but also for video games being more complex interactive storytelling media and not just empty imitation of lousy film culture.

[MoritzPGKatz]

I don't have a lot respect for technical execution being absolute value. That is wrong with modern tracker/retro music, but the blame is not in tracker software itself.

Let me put it this way: why should I use tools that limit my capabilities as a musician, e.g. recording a live instrument? If I used trackers, I'd force myself to those limitations, which, I'll grant you that, can in fact be pretty healthy sometimes - VGM composers of the early days accomplished great things by overcoming technical obstacles. But that shouldn't be the workflow anybody should be aiming for if they intend to put any musical idea going on in their heads down.

Like said, modular music is perfect format for complex music story telling in games. Being able to real time mix and re mix the tracks and loops. That gives value for tracker composing itself, but also for video games being more complex interactive storytelling media and not just empty imitation of lousy film culture.

Then let me repeat myself too: technical advancements have made it pretty easy to do that with waveform audio as well, which eliminates that advantage for me. You can render the stems of a track and mix them anyway you like (cross-fade, filter, reverb, pan...) by using simple scripts.

This problem is quite bad in modern film scoring as well, and seems like VGM is imitating the problem. It is not better situation than tracker-retroism. Film music (orchestral) culture has quite blatantly being dumbing down whole genre of classical music, making it sort of disposal bubblegum music. There is no reason for video game culture to imitate that crap.

Either being SID-chip or classical orchestra. It is all about compositions and experiments and what you do with the tools. It is all about making great music.

Fully agree with you on all points you mentioned here.
There's always art and product (crap), and it can be quite difficult to draw a straight line between the two.

[1982]

Let me put it this way: why should I use tools that limit my capabilities as a musician, e.g. recording a live instrument? If I used trackers, I'd force myself to those limitations, which, I'll grant you that, can in fact be pretty healthy sometimes - VGM composers of the early days accomplished great things by overcoming technical obstacles. But that shouldn't be the workflow anybody should be aiming for if they intend to put any musical idea going on in their heads down.

That was not what I meant. And it was not targeted to musicians working with DAW systems because they are completely neutral from technical stand point. It was targeted mainly for retro chip musicians who value the technical side of chip music more than the actual musical side. They usually think that it is the chip or technical restrictions that make the music good. While in most cases it produces distinctive sound(s) like any instrument does, it doesn't really make the music automatically good. They completely ignore the input of composer, whom in some cases are really great and true musicians. Fact is that most of the old VGM are unbearable crap, while the best of that music compare to any masterpieces in any genre of music. I mostly talk about C64/NES music, I don't have so much experience from other systems.

Btw, you will likely run into problems with dynamically scripted waveform music if there are memory restrictions. Such way would lead into massive usage of both physical and RAM memory if used extensively. Also what I've read, real time audio processing with added effects require surprising amounts of processing power. We don't have "GPU's" for audio yet. But then again, most of the modern games are only about graphics so processors can be almost fully used for audio processing

[C.A. Sinner]

Fact is that most of the old VGM are unbearable crap, while the best of that music compare to any masterpieces in any genre of music. I mostly talk about C64/NES music, I don't have so much experience from other systems.

I agree. Not sure if it compares to masterpieces of other genres but whatever.

I think 8bit-era VGM composers (well the GOOD ones anyway) were more creative because they weren't trying to make music according to the "chiptune" formula but were simply soundtracking videogames. As soon as something becomes a formula, the original spark of creativity tends to disappear.

[1982]

I think 8bit-era VGM composers (well the GOOD ones anyway) were more creative because they weren't trying to make music according to the "chiptune" formula but were simply soundtracking videogames. As soon as something becomes a formula, the original spark of creativity tends to disappear.

Well said

[johntorkington]

I suppose I should have foreseen the cussing and discussing over this topic : ) I think I've got the answer to my original question, though, so thanks for all your responses. I'll probably stick with honing on my sequencer abilities unless I get a specific project that needs something else.