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[Paul Eres]

I think I agree with that, I don't like Campbell's recommendations much. But there are fantasy stories I like, although they tend to be atypical ones, like the Thomas Covenant stories (which were about chosen one and saving the world but were distinct because it was done by a leper who wasn't a typical hero and did things like rape people but was still likable and believable).

I'm also not sure how effective it is to just tell people who have bad ideas for stories to try again and have better ones. If they had better ideas, wouldn't they be using them? I think people have to mature and have more life experiences first and think about things and so on before their ability to write better stories will improve, that takes time.

[Gravious]

I actually agree with you guys about the straight good/evil stuff, the snippet i posted doesn't really provide much information, perhaps it wasn't enough to post.

The plot of my story focuses on an elf who's taken out of his element and involved in someone elses story, which becomes something only he can resolve, not that he knows or wants to.  It just so happens that he's a good guy, and the bad guy is.. well, bad.  I want to make my game a strong character story with the plot device allowing for a diverse game area.

A question for those who know;  How is best to progress, write a full story and use it as the template for the game, or sketch the outline of the plot, flesh out some key ideas, then let the game development help shape the story?

I'm not sure how i should continue...

[fish]

my views on this are radical.

i think you should ALWAYS start with game mechanics.
let those grow and evolve. see where they take you first, and THEN start trying to come up with a story that meshes well with your mechanics. you want complementarity.
if your core mechanic is about pushing crates around, then your story should reflect that somehow.

the game that made me start to think that way was portal.
the integration of the narrative in this one was flawless.
it could be completely ignored, and the game would still work, but doing so would take away one of the highlights of the game.

im trying to do something similar with fez.
in my original plan, fez had no story. i was gonna do that on purpose because A, i didnt want to bother, and B, its extremely rare that i feel a story actually adds anything to games. they usually get in the way an annoy me.
but then the gameplay grew. and it started going in all those unexpected directions.
little by little, i started piecing this little backstory that explained what was going on. and without saying anything, it ties in perfectly with the gameplay, almost explains it. and im very happy about that.

i once a long running correspondence with a childhood hero of mine, doug tenappel.
i asked him why he moved away from videogames and he said all he wanted to do was tell a story, and that games were the worst place to do that. at the time this statement shocked me! i couldn't believe how wrong doug tenappel was on this one!
but years later i totally agree. games are a shit medium to tell stories. if what you care about is telling your character's story, save yourself a lot of trouble and right a book.

[synapse]

I'd have to agree with the general sentiment.  Computer games are a difficult medium to tell a story, largely because they require large amounts of interaction.  However, something like a pen and paper game can be quite effective at telling a story, only because a person is able to intervene.

A human "dungeon master" (or whatever) is able to override game mechanics, provide important nuances to storyline at key points, and to actually develop the story in response to the players' actions.  It's not impossible that computer games could do this someday, it's just incredibly, incredibly difficult.

But yeah, start with gameplay mechanics.  And if the mechanics are no more detailed than "JRPG meets Western RPG", then you better work on it some more.

[Paul Eres]

I disagree with that sentiment, because of two elements to it.

The first element is the assumption that only good stories are worth telling or reading. I think that's false. It can be valuable and wonderful to read mediocre stories. Some of my favorite stories are the pretty stupid stories that exist in cartoons -- Rainbow Brite, Thundercats, He-Man and She-Ra, Care Bears, Captain N, that sort of ridiculous stuff. I don't feel that that type of story is worthless, it's fun. Similarly, even though most jRPGs etc. have what would be considered insipid stories from the standpoint of literature, they are often fun, entertaining stories. And it's not that I don't like literature, I like Brothers Karamazov, Les Miserables, Kafka, and all that too -- but I also like Inspector Gadget, Teen Titans, and the TMNT cartoons.

Second, because it's factually off -- there are many games which I believe started with the story which I enjoyed, usually because of those stories. I might agree with it if the games I most enjoyed were the games without stories, and if I felt stories got in the way, but I don't feel that way and that isn't my experience in playing games: sometimes alternatively I feel they would have been better off without any gameplay (Xenogears and the MGS series are examples; and pretty much any text adventure I feel would be better off without those stupid puzzles).

In other words, even if games aren't very good at telling great stories, they're good at telling trivial stories, and trivial stories can be worthwhile. Some of my best memories are from watching Duck Tales, I'd hate to only read heavy literature all the time and not be able to enjoy more lighthearted stuff.

[Paul Eres]

I actually agree with you guys about the straight good/evil stuff [...] It just so happens that he's a good guy, and the bad guy is.. well, bad.

Uh... so you're saying you don't believe in good and bad, but the hero is good and the villain is bad.

[fish]

im sorry i completely derailed this thread.