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[st33d]

Actually making a connected level without resorting to bombs (Spelunky, Binding of Isaac), digging (Minecraft, Terraria) or some other Deus Ex Machina (Nethack) is a lot harder than people think.

I've only just managed to solve the problem myself - and before then I thought I'd solved it but it was horribly broken %5 of the time (usually for playtesters, never for me). So it's probably still broken even though I've implemented yet another fool-proof connectivity test on top of it all.

[eclectocrat]

I've only just managed to solve the problem myself - and before then I thought I'd solved it but it was horribly broken %5 of the time (usually for playtesters, never for me). So it's probably still broken even though I've implemented yet another fool-proof connectivity test on top of it all.

And computationally expensive. Floodfill > Tunnel > Floodfill > Tunnel ad nauseum.

[st33d]

I save the floodfill for the end now.

Now it just doesn't give a fuck, then tests whether it's all connected at the end. And if it doesn't (which isn't that common) it just rolls again.

The results are actually better than trying to get it right as you go along.

[Fallsburg]

The places where a PCG system make sense:
1) Where content can be samey but shouldn't be the same.  e.g. trees
2) Where having the same content repeated makes the game uninteresting (or less interesting or just goes against the design principles of the game). e.g. Roguelikes (turning from strategy game to puzzle game)

To make a good PCG level design system you must:
1) Be able to differentiate between a good level and a bad level.
2) Be able to design a good level
3) Be able to create a system of rules that can do either 1 or 2, and hopefully both (the easiest is typically creating a system of rules that can do 1 well and 2 decently, so that you can just reroll if you determine it isn't good)

Personally, I don't think a danmaku is a horrible choice for PCG.  The Geometry Wars games sort of get to that type of play (i.e. find the negative space [or create it yourself]) and are PCG.
That being said, you should understand what makes a danmaku good and/or bad, beyond the level of "know it when I see it". And if you can do that, then you should probably be able to make a good level by hand.

[antybaner]

The places where a PCG system make sense:
1) Where content can be samey but shouldn't be the same.  e.g. trees
2) Where having the same content repeated makes the game uninteresting (or less interesting or just goes against the design principles of the game). e.g. Roguelikes (turning from strategy game to puzzle game)

To make a good PCG level design system you must:
1) Be able to differentiate between a good level and a bad level.
2) Be able to design a good level
3) Be able to create a system of rules that can do either 1 or 2, and hopefully both (the easiest is typically creating a system of rules that can do 1 well and 2 decently, so that you can just reroll if you determine it isn't good)

Personally, I don't think a danmaku is a horrible choice for PCG.  The Geometry Wars games sort of get to that type of play (i.e. find the negative space [or create it yourself]) and are PCG.
That being said, you should understand what makes a danmaku good and/or bad, beyond the level of "know it when I see it". And if you can do that, then you should probably be able to make a good level by hand.

I would agree for the most part besides the idea that spellunky and TBOI are not ask good as, for instance, diablo or fate. I rather think that games like that have the problem of making you go through 50x levels that have no varriance what so ever. If you play these games for long enough, you begin to already predict the level build. ITs also true for spellunky but its not as bad. I did once get to the point where I could predict if a pot in spellunky had a spider in it or not but...

[C.A. Sinner]

Diablo doesn't really need "PG" levels I think. The only thing that should be randomized are the item drops. This is especially important for multiplayer. Titan Quest does it better (hand-designed levels + random item drops).

[st33d]

I'd disagree.

Exploring around the plains, caves and dungeons in Diablo I found to be great fun. And replayable to this day.

[C.A. Sinner]

well idk i've never really tried exploring in diablo because i mostly played the games online. tbh i find them a bit boring in singleplayer mode.

[st33d]

I'd didn't have a stable internet connection till 2005. LAN Diablo was a lot of fun, but we simply didn't play online games back then. It wasn't possible where we lived.

[baconman]

A fair number of them, actually. Some do a real good job of feeling distinctive and really enjoyable, but eventually plucking around within games, you *can* sort of get predictability down in some of them. (I noticed Red Rogue often likes putting exits in the bottom-left most; bottom-center secondmost).

Exploration - especially as a major point in the game - is a terrific kind of thing that makes PGC very valuable in concept; and fundamentally it's a big building block of games aforementioned. It's the distribution - and actual presence - of gameplay elements that really determines the overall funness of PGC.

If there's two areas that I could see most Roguelikes/PGC games better balanced in; it's item drop rate and enemy/trap distribution. They tend to be either way heavy or way light in at least one of those departments.

[eclectocrat]

Exploration - especially as a major point in the game - is a terrific kind of thing that makes PGC very valuable in concept; and fundamentally it's a big building block of games aforementioned. It's the distribution - and actual presence - of gameplay elements that really determines the overall funness of PGC.

Yeah, this.

A problem I'm dealing with now is reward for exploration. People don't explore to find yet another dead end. Everyone wants to find something special. That's the holy grail. Lot's of special things spaced out in a way that is unpredictable so that it drives the player to explore and be pleasantly surprised at reasonable intervals.

[baconman]

Regarding Mysterious Castle, or another project?