next »

[Bree]

I've tried the engine demo too now, and it basically feels "right", though for a fast-paced action game I guess something with even more immediate response might be even better. But that's probably just a matter of minor tweaking.

Also, I agree online play would be a huge draw. I guess that's not really feasible with Game Maker, is it? But whatever, if this thing does get off the ground, then maybe a reimplementation in another framework is more feasible. At the moment it's most important to get something out there, I guess.

And one last question: any reason you specifically mentioned Xbox 360 controllers as opposed to any generic gamepad? Surely any old gamepad would do?

If you pay for the full version of GameMaker (I think it's like 10 bucks), you can allow online multiplayer and suchlike.

Although you could use any old gamepad, the wired Xbox 360 is the most popular, as it can be used on the PC as well (having a USB cord), and is a fairly well-made controller.

Demo looks hawt- more, please!

[kyn]

Bonus Characters:
Ip (The Underside): A powerful but frail ranged attacker.

The game wasn't even released and it's already being praised with a character in this?
I know it's not up to me, but I don't know if it's the best character to choose from a huge list of possible characters.
^{Also, I'm not so supportive of that game, but that's another discussion}

But keep up the good work nonetheless, it's nice to know someone stepped up and started making something, really excited over here!

[Soulliard]

Yeah, block button would be better IMO.

Okay, that's an easy change.

Do you expect to have stage hazards/events like in Smash Bros?

Yes. We can work those out once we begin work on creating stages.

As for the option of adding characters, I've had an idea for a while for a fighting game where you can download new characters as they're made, stages too for that matter.

With Game Maker, I don't think that's possible. I don't think it's entirely necessary either; this isn't MUGEN.

I'd love to see online battles (becuase I doubt the lot of us are going to cling up for visits) but that's further down the road I reckon. Should be feasable with minimum lag given it's a 2d game.

Game Maker can be used to make online games, though I don't have any experience with that. Maybe someone else could give a hand here when the game gets that far.

I've tried the engine demo too now, and it basically feels "right", though for a fast-paced action game I guess something with even more immediate response might be even better. But that's probably just a matter of minor tweaking.

Attack delays can be easily adjusted from one character to another.

The jump delay could also be shortened, although that brings up another problem. It makes it much more difficult to use ^ attacks without jumping. The same is true for the 'fall-through-platform' delay.

And one last question: any reason you specifically mentioned Xbox 360 controllers as opposed to any generic gamepad? Surely any old gamepad would do?

It should.

The Underside wasn't even released and it's already being praised with a character in this?
I know it's not up to me, but I don't know if it's the best character to choose from a huge list of possible characters.
Also, I'm not so supportive of that game, but that's another discussion

I included him because he was one of the characters from the original design document. I have no personal attachment to him. To be honest, I had to search through the original Indie Brawl thread to find out who he was. 

But keep up the good work nonetheless, it's nice to know someone stepped up and started making something, really excited over here!

Someone had to. Getting a project like this started is the hardest part.

[muku]

The jump delay could also be shortened, although that brings up another problem. It makes it much more difficult to use ^ attacks without jumping. The same is true for the 'fall-through-platform' delay.

What about making it so that you have to push down the attack button, then you can optionally press any directional modifiers, and only when you release the attack key is the attack unleashed?

[Xion]

I dunno why but that method sounds undelicious.
Unimmediate attacks when you lift up the button as opposed to when you press it? Nyeh.

How about when you press attack there is a very slight delay that allows directional modifiers, and if no directional modifiers are detected during that time, or if the button is released before that time is up, a normal attack is executed. That way if you press the button quickly the attack occurs, but if you hold the button down a bit too long, the attack still occurs, while allowing for directional modification.

[PenguinHat]

Minor question, but why do we have characters you have to unlock? Personally, I've always hated that. It means that you have to jump through bizarre hoops in order to get the whole game.

Also, we need Nethack in there. It could be a man with an @ for a head or something. I don't know. Maybe just an ASCII stage.

Also, also, what are we doing to stop it being a boring rock-paper-scissors where you might as well guess because everything does the same thing in the end? What counter's what and how much? I think we should use the tryied and tested unequal payout rock-paper-scissors system instead.

[muku]

I dunno why but that method sounds undelicious.
Unimmediate attacks when you lift up the button as opposed to when you press it? Nyeh.

Bah, everything I bring up in this thread is naysayed      

I still think it could work. When you just want to do a normal attack, you're gonna push and release the button very quickly anyway, so there's probably less delay than with a fixed delay, and if you want to do a directional attack, you're only gonna hold the button long enough for you to press the directional key, so again you're about as quick as you can be. Plus, as soon as you push the button down, the character could go into some "ready to strike" pose, so you'd get visual feedback immediately that something is happening.

That probably was clear as mud.

But the idea with the timeout is good. Isn't that more or less what I proposed anyway, just with an upper limit on the time you can keep the button down?

Anyway, it would be nice to have different versions of the engine demo to try these things out...

[Soulliard]

What about making it so that you have to push down the attack button, then you can optionally press any directional modifiers, and only when you release the attack key is the attack unleashed?

This sounds a little unintuitive to me, I'm afraid.

How about when you press attack there is a very slight delay that allows directional modifiers, and if no directional modifiers are detected during that time, or if the button is released before that time is up, a normal attack is executed. That way if you press the button quickly the attack occurs, but if you hold the button down a bit too long, the attack still occurs, while allowing for directional modification.

That could work, but it would require a bit of work to implement. Does anyone else think we should add this feature?

Minor question, but why do we have characters you have to unlock?

You're right; it's not really necessary.

Also, also, what are we doing to stop it being a boring rock-paper-scissors where you might as well guess because everything does the same thing in the end? What counter's what and how much? I think we should use the tryied and tested unequal payout rock-paper-scissors system instead.

I don't really follow you, I'm afraid; are you asking what will separate this from a mindless button-masher? I think the attacks ought to be unique and situational enough that the game will be interesting.

[PenguinHat]

Sorry, I shouldn't post late at night. I start to stop making sense.

Basically, what is going to stop this game being button bashing thing? How comptetive are we making it? What counters what, and how well?

Right now, players can jump, normal attack, special attack and block. What does each thing defeat?

I think that normal attacks should do medium damage but be stopped by blocking. Blocking should do no damage but be quick and easy to stop normal attacks. Special attacks should do high damage and defeat blocks, but be stopped by normal attacks.

If we stick to this for every character, we can make the characters have all kinds of weird and wonderful powers, because we have good core we can stick to.

And why do we have items? Personally, I've always hated the idea of having random items randomly give a random advantage to one player. It turns the whole game into a "run for the item" thing, which is no fun.

[Soulliard]

Basically, what is going to stop this game being button bashing thing? How comptetive are we making it? What counters what, and how well?

Right now, players can jump, normal attack, special attack and block. What does each thing defeat?

Since standard attacks will usually be quicker, they are good counters against special attacks. Blocking is a good protection against any attack, but if you rely on it too much you will lose your shield (temporarily). I had not planned on making special attacks specifically counter anything, since they have so much variety. Making them unblockable might be an interesting twist, but I'd like to see how the game is turning out before I commit to such a big change.

[Soulliard]

I worked on the engine a bit more, and now most of the basic mechanics are complete.

You can download the latest engine test here. Now you can battle with a friend!

Player 1 Controls:
Arrow Keys- Move
L- Attack
K- Shield/Dodge

Player 2 Controls:
WASD- Move
G- Attack
H- Shield/Dodge


Let me know if that feels right to you guys.

[PenguinHat]

The engine is great! All we need now are special attacks and we can start some basic prototyping! Looking forward to it! You are some kind of wonderman!

Basically, what is going to stop this game being button bashing thing? How comptetive are we making it? What counters what, and how well?

Right now, players can jump, normal attack, special attack and block. What does each thing defeat?

Since standard attacks will usually be quicker, they are good counters against special attacks. Blocking is a good protection against any attack, but if you rely on it too much you will lose your shield (temporarily). I had not planned on making special attacks specifically counter anything, since they have so much variety. Making them unblockable might be an interesting twist, but I'd like to see how the game is turning out before I commit to such a big change.

It's just that if we make the shield defeat everything then the only choice players have is when to shield, which isn't that interesting. Because then the best character is often the dude with the best shield. Whereas if you give shields a weakness it becomes interesting, and as a bonus you don't have to worry about giving shields a limit, because there is a counter to it. And if we are going to make large changes, it should be now while it doesn't take much work to do so.

I also MSPainted a diagram! It is here!

[Soulliard]

It's just that if we make the shield defeat everything then the only choice players have is when to shield, which isn't that interesting. Because then the best character is often the dude with the best shield. Whereas if you give shields a weakness it becomes interesting, and as a bonus you don't have to worry about giving shields a limit, because there is a counter to it. And if we are going to make large changes, it should be now while it doesn't take much work to do so.

I also MSPainted a diagram! It is here!

There's a variable for each attack that determines whether or not it is stopped by a shield, so the engine is already equipped to handle this change. The question is whether or not such a change is necessary. Super Smash Bros. does not have a system like the one you're suggesting (that I'm aware of), and it works fine. I would like to hear others' thoughts on this.

Did you want to make all special attacks unblockable? I like the idea of shielding against missile attacks. I'm also curious about how dodging factors into your suggestion.

[battlerager]

Engine was pretty nice!
Super sweet concept, I was totally unaware of it!

Also:

[PenguinHat]

It's just that if we make the shield defeat everything then the only choice players have is when to shield, which isn't that interesting. Because then the best character is often the dude with the best shield. Whereas if you give shields a weakness it becomes interesting, and as a bonus you don't have to worry about giving shields a limit, because there is a counter to it. And if we are going to make large changes, it should be now while it doesn't take much work to do so.

I also MSPainted a diagram! It is here!

There's a variable for each attack that determines whether or not it is stopped by a shield, so the engine is already equipped to handle this change. The question is whether or not such a change is necessary. Super Smash Bros. does not have a system like the one you're suggesting (that I'm aware of), and it works fine. I would like to hear others' thoughts on this.

Did you want to make all special attacks unblockable? I like the idea of shielding against missile attacks. I'm also curious about how dodging factors into your suggestion.

I didn't really like SSB:B however. It just seemed like the RNG chose the winner more than the skill of the players, with the items and massive stage hazards, and everything. And I had all this hope that it would be a serious fighting game I could get into (I could never do those Hadoken and Dragon Punches things with the analog stick, which is a shame because I've always wanted to get into fighting games.)

If every character has at least one simple, easy to use unblockible attack, we should be fine, and able to add weird stuff for each character on top of the core system.

What does dodging do anyway? We could use it to defeat ranged special attacks, and have normal attacks defeat close range special attacks.

[William Broom]

The thing that I think is great about SSB is that you can play it with all the randomness, which is great for people like me who don't want to have to learn a complicated fighting system but just want to get some mates together and spam waddle dees at each other. Or you can go the NO ITEMS FOX ONLY FINAL DESTINATION route and have a (reputedly) deep fighting game with no chance involved whatsoever.

So I think the game should definitely have items but just as definitely have an option to turn them off.

I also like the idea of special attacks being unblockable, but if you did that you would have to make it so that normal attacks are actually effective at cancelling specials.

[Soulliard]

Engine was pretty nice!

Glad to hear it!

Super sweet concept, I was totally unaware of it!

Also:

Character submissions go here. 

And I had all this hope that it would be a serious fighting game I could get into.

I don't think Indie Brawl will be a terribly serious fighting game. While I will try to balance it well, it won't be on the same competitive level as, say, Soul Calibur.

If every character has at least one simple, easy to use unblockible attack, we should be fine, and able to add weird stuff for each character on top of the core system.

That's certainly doable.

What does dodging do anyway? We could use it to defeat ranged special attacks, and have normal attacks defeat close range special attacks.

It just moves you quickly. So what you said is pretty much true: dodging would be better against ranged specials, and interrupting would be better against melee specials.

The thing that I think is great about SSB is that you can play it with all the randomness, which is great for people like me who don't want to have to learn a complicated fighting system but just want to get some mates together and spam waddle dees at each other. Or you can go the NO ITEMS FOX ONLY FINAL DESTINATION route and have a (reputedly) deep fighting game with no chance involved whatsoever.

That's pretty much what I think we should shoot for.

So I think the game should definitely have items but just as definitely have an option to turn them off.

I was thinking the same thing.

I also like the idea of special attacks being unblockable, but if you did that you would have to make it so that normal attacks are actually effective at cancelling specials.

Normal attacks would need to be noticeably faster for that to be the case...


Here's why I'm a little skeptical about the rock-paper-scissors idea. While such a system is necessary for most traditional fighting games (like Soul Calibur), it's not needed for Super Smash Bros. Why not? Because SSB creates depth and excitement by making battles dynamic. Characters have a lot of mobility, and since attacks have so much knockback, they need to move around a lot. With several characters playing at a time, and hazard-ridden battlefields, there's a lot going on to make battles interesting. You don't need complex attack patterns to create depth; simply moving your character to a strong position and aiming your attacks creates enough depth by itself. And since it's such an intuitive system, it's easier for new players to pick up.


On a completely different subject, who would be interested in contributing art?

[Quetz]

This is a great idea, I'm glad it's being revived and stuff! The engine is great. Will large, scrolling levels be possible? The jump delay feels spot-on, I think. It would probably look good animated too (a crouching-type thing going on before a jump, or a crouching-type thing getting ready for an attack? You decide!)

[goshki]

The engine is interesting indeed. Yet I'm not fully positive about how the dodge system works. For example you can double jump and then dodge up even higher. Another thing is that the character freezes in one place after dodging even when airborne. Maybe in such a case the character should continue moving further in the direction of dodging (a kind of inertia)... And how about diagonal dodging (I haven't noticed if it's feasible now)?

[godsavant]

On a completely different subject, who would be interested in contributing art?

I'll start.

But I need to know what.