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[Clemens]

Hey, good to see some discussion going on and thanks for the long report godsavant!

The major problem I see with testing right now is that you'll get a completely different view of the characters and their balance once you have some experience with the them, know their movelists and which move is advisable in which kind of situation.

When I tested the Dwarf the first a couple of times with a friend we had the feeling that he's a totally chaotic and almost uncontrollable character. Then we looked up the movelist, tried out every move slowly, being concious of what the move will look like and what it actually does and could develop an understanding of the character. After that, he suddenly started to feel differently, since we knew what we had to be careful about and how to use his advantages.

Also it has to be taken into account that there is no real visual feedback upon executing a move. Naturally characters like Naija, Quote and GK play a lot easier, because each move is quite unique and thus easier to remember. I think the playing experience will differ a whole lot once a character has all his animations. Or most of them *cough*

It gets especially hard with characters like Nikujin, who are very fast and really are the 'blitzer' type character.
But I genuinely like him the way he is. There is no spot he can't reach and gets from one side of the level to the other within split seconds. He's great for evading and you have good chances of rescuing yourself from falling off the stage, once you get his handling right. If you know when to execute which move and also know the strengths and weaknesses of the opponent, he is fast and deadly. It might not be so beginner friendly, but I'd rather have a little steeper learning curve than a playing experience that feels shallow and less challenging quickly.

Also strangely enough, I use Quotes fireballs (pun unintended :D ) and the rocket launcher the most (next to the polar star which is awesome because you can shoot straight up) and while testing we always had the feeling that it was all quite well balanced because otherwise you just could spam too much.

Concerning Lieros grappling hook I think it's mostly a matter of getting used to the handling. I haven't experienced any problems with it not working and always had the feeling it's a great evading possibility if used right.

Also I think making Dwarf's shield rush block projectiles is a great idea!

All in all, IB is not a game that can be dived into right away, especially not at it's current status. It will get better the further the development, but right now I guess you have to make some preparations to kind of play it right.

[Soulliard]

Also it has to be taken into account that there is no real visual feedback upon executing a move.

This makes a huge difference, especially with the Dwarf, whose attacks are obscure without feedback. Liero is the only character that is really playable without animations, since most of his attacks are projectiles.

To illustrate my point, GK is a lot more playable now than he used to be, but I barely even changed his movelist. Animations make a huge difference. (Also, Turner's counter is impossible to use against a non-animated character).

It gets especially hard with characters like Nikujin, who are very fast and really are the 'blitzer' type character.

Not that it matters, but Nikujin's not really a blitzer. He chains his attacks together, rather than mixing them up.

Also I think making Dwarf's shield rush block projectiles is a great idea!

It shall be done! 

[Clemens]

It gets especially hard with characters like Nikujin, who are very fast and really are the 'blitzer' type character.

Not that it matters, but Nikujin's not really a blitzer. He chains his attacks together, rather than mixing them up.

I often prefer characters with fairly good mobility, who rush in, deliver a well-timed, punishing blow, and then rush back out. I like to call these characters 'blitzers'.

I guess there are different ways to handle Nikujin, but this description fits my style of playing quite well. Additionally you can do some chain attacks, but I'm still a bit carefull with those, because you might miss and be in the middle of some combo move where you have no control over the character and are an easy target for other players.

But this is really all hairsplitting.


[EDIT]
Oh, and yes, Quote needs a sepparate animation for fireing the rocket launcher in mid-air, but I'll not touch him until we got the permission to use him.
[/EDIT]

[William Broom]

I did a bit of playtesting with my friends. One of them, who is notorious for finding a spam-able move and sticking with it in any fighting game, chose mostly to use Quote's rocket launcher while in the air. Another player got pretty good with Nikujin.

I did think that Liero was in some ways overpowered. Mostly I was playing him and my friends were playing against me, so perhaps they weren't as proactive in approaching me as they could have been - but still, it seems like Liero can threaten a huge amount of the stage with his various attacks. The worst offender was the A>. I was often able to blast my opponent repeatedly with it and it seemed like they had little chance of escape, especially because of the high knockback. Once my friend learned how to reflect my projectiles with Shield Song, this was evened out to a certain extent, but he still had the same problem when playing as Nikujin. I might recommend that the shotgun's knockback be reduced.

For Dwarf I would love to see the shield charge reflect projectiles, although it already works pretty well in that regard. Because it makes him impossible to knockback, he can often just blunder through the enemy's projectiles and laugh off the damage due to his high health.

One of my friends became quite proficient at 'blitzing' with Nikujin but most of his attacks seemed to revolve around Spear Barrage and not much else. However he did seem to enjoy using the head stab (or 'wang attack' as we called it) more for the pride of landing it than because it was actually his best option.

[godsavant]

An unrelated question: I've been seeing a lot of item and attack descriptions saying that they will "stun" the opponent. I can picture how this functions, but does this mean we'll need a "stunned" animation for each character?

[Soulliard]

Stunned = Hurt

Nearly all attacks stun (except the Polar Star, Spikeballs, and Flamer, I believe). Most also cause knockback.

It might look a little awkward if the character is stunned and not knocked back, but in these situations the character will usually be encased in ice, stone or electricity.

[godsavant]

Alright.

Any milestones for the next build? I think I need some refocusing here.

[Soulliard]

As far as graphics go? Work on Nikujin, Liero, Dwarf, Lugaru, Trilby, Iji, Xoda or Naija (she only needs a wall-clinging sprite). Nikujin, Naija and Liero are probably closest to being done, though.

Or you could do graphics for a stage (Sun Temple and Omega Darn might be higher priority because they already have music).

[godsavant]

More feedback time, I had a marathon session with some friends. Because there were so many matches, I only include the prominent ones:

Golden Knight vs. Quote (Me) - The guy playing GK had already found out about Bonesaw from an earlier match, so he was chasing me around most of the time trying to build up his meter. The thing I want to bring up is the GK's ability to absorb projectiles to charge his Bonesaw: once my opponent discovered he could do that, Quote had no way of hurting him (outside of Sword, but I couldn't get close to GK w/o him pulling a fast Whirlwind on me)! Unless Phantom King doesn't count as a projectile attack (which it shouldn't), Quote is pretty helpless against the turtling GK player.

Liero (Me) vs. Naija - Despite his awesome power, it seems that Liero can never win any matches due to his low health, and the fact that I suck with him. On the right side of the stage, I could play sniper with Shotgun and Doomsday (that's the series of 3 shots, right?), but my opponent wised up and got really close range. No fault there, really.

Also, if I pick up a dropped Spike Seed, throw it, and get hit by it, do I take damage (i.e. do all Spike Seeds behave as though the original Naija had thrown it, or simply 'obey' whoever throws it)?

Nikujin (Me) vs. Naija - I have a request: when Nikujin uses Through Slash, can you make it so the Slash takes attack priority and cancels whatever the victim was about to pull? I've had too many times where I've tried to keep the enemy on the ground by Through Slashing back and forth, only to have one not register w/ hit detection, or to be stopped in the middle of the move by my enemy's in-progress move (like GK's Whirlwind), whereupon Nikujin would stand there and take whatever the opponent had coming for him. Through Slash should cancel all opposing attacks, no two ways about it.

That's really all that stood out to me. I'll try to playtest more w/ the other characters, but Outer Wall is getting SOOOO OOOLD. There are some stages, like Corneria, that never get boring no matter how many times they've been played. Outer Wall is not one of them. I need a new stage before my friends can be convinced to play some more of this game with me.

[Soulliard]

Golden Knight vs. Quote (Me) - Unless Phantom King doesn't count as a projectile attack (which it shouldn't), Quote is pretty helpless against the turtling GK player.

Fortunately, Phantom King doesn't count as a projectile attack. But Quote is at a disadvantage there.

As a sidenote, I'm nerfing GK's whirlwind for the next release (and Nikujin's spear barrage).

Liero (Me) vs. Naija - Despite his awesome power, it seems that Liero can never win any matches due to his low health, and the fact that I suck with him.

Liero's a tricky character to use and balance. I can try buffing him a bit for the next release.

Also, if I pick up a dropped Spike Seed, throw it, and get hit by it, do I take damage (i.e. do all Spike Seeds behave as though the original Naija had thrown it, or simply 'obey' whoever throws it)?

It obeys whoever throws it. Note that if you throw it at your feet, you can still use it to launch yourself into the air.

Nikujin (Me) vs. Naija - I have a request:

Through Slash only has a medium hitbox to prevent the attack from becoming overpowered. I can give it a higher priority, though.

Outer Wall is getting SOOOO OOOLD.

I'll make the Bonesaw Stage a top priority, then.

[Fuzz]

Golden Knight vs. Quote (Me) - Unless Phantom King doesn't count as a projectile attack (which it shouldn't), Quote is pretty helpless against the turtling GK player.

Fortunately, Phantom King doesn't count as a projectile attack. But Quote is at a disadvantage there.

As a sidenote, I'm nerfing GK's whirlwind for the next release (and Nikujin's spear barrage).

Liero (Me) vs. Naija - Despite his awesome power, it seems that Liero can never win any matches due to his low health, and the fact that I suck with him.

Liero's a tricky character to use and balance. I can try buffing him a bit for the next release.

I found that the Golden Knight's whirlwind was very effective, but wasn't completely overpowered. It just ended up being his most commonly used move. I say reduce its damage a bit, but don't totally get rid of all its power.

Also, I think that Liero is perfectly fine the way he is. He's my friend's favourite character, and he's pretty evenly matched against GK and Naija, at least.

[Soulliard]

  Playtest Report! 

Since I'd done some work on it, my friend and I played on the Bonesaw stage. The cannons weren't added yet, but the bomb blocks were, and they added an interesting twist. A few times, a bomb block saved (or lost) a life.

Golden Knight is his new favorite character, so I think we did a pretty good job with him. We discovered a few easily abused moves in Bonesaw mode, though- mainly the shockwave attack. Bonesaw Mode probably lasts a little too long, too. But that's easily fixed.

Oh, he also mentioned that the sprites were great.

Liero was actually pretty well balanced, though pretty tricky to use. It turns out that the Flamer was actually a bit on the powerful side, but after toning it down, I think we have a pretty unique fighter. He's growing to be one of my favorites.

Dwarf was cool, in a chaotic sort of way. Tantrum probably needs some adjustments, but it's still the most fun move to use in the game.

Turner is turning out to be a really nice character. His high reach and knockback make him pretty formidable. Rabbit Kick turned the tide of a battle more than once, and his throw is very cool. A few of his moves need rebalancing (punching and throwing daggers are pointless), but overall, I'm really happy with how he turned out.

Trilby's a tricky character to test, since neither of us really have the hang of using him yet. He's got a lot of potential, but he spent most of the time getting slaughtered by the Bonesaw. He could probably use a few buffs.

[battlerager]

Good stuff!

You have no idea how pumped I am about that Bonesaw stage 


From a bit of playtesting with my little brother I can agree that Bonesaw mode lasts a bit too long.

Tantrum is probably a tiny bit too fast. (Its FUN though)



Will do more playtesting soon! 

[godsavant]

  Playtest Report  ( Henceforth the official heading for all playtests)

I just did some more playing today; it was during class, so I never got to finish any games. Some general points:

-Several of my opponents protested the lack of a Smash Bros. ledge-grab mechanic on the edge of a stage. I have no opinion, but it does seem to be difficult to recover from freefall on the right side of the stage.

-The mention of Charles Barkley as a playable character piqued significant interest in the game. And I mean significant interest.

-Liero can spam the shotgun for long-range untouchability, since the shots travel all the way across the screen with unpredictable spread and formidable knockback; I was able to blast my opponents off the edge of the screen without ever letting them touch the ground.

-I see that this has already been brought up, but many of Turner’s attacks seem quite useless. Knife Throw was actually somewhat good, but the rest of his techniques felt like variations of ‘melee kick/staff attack’. Especially his Punch. He just feels really homogenous, since all you have to do is run up to your opponent's face and press an attack, and seems like it would be rather difficult to make his attack animations unique and memorable (maybe it’s the current lack of animations that causes this).

-In the matches I played, all of which included the Golden Knight (I played both as and against), the duration of his Bonesaw didn't seem to be a problem, since I could run away - and I was playing as Liero, a character with absolutely pathetic speed and vertical capability. Maybe it will be different with 4 players, where he will have more people to bash for his charge-up.

I agree, however, that his Shockwave is a bit much.

-Never mind what I had said about Quote's Rocket Launcher, it's good the way it is now. The last time I had played was when we were still using Kovski's old explosion animation as the damage area, so I was under the false impression we had stuck with that. Sorry.

-Nikujin can continually hump the uppermost wall of the stage (the one that extends off-screen) forever, and be virtually unreachable to certain characters, like Naija, GK, or Dwarf.

[Soulliard]

-Several of my opponents protested the lack of a Smash Bros. ledge-grab mechanic on the edge of a stage. I have no opinion, but it does seem to be difficult to recover from freefall on the right side of the stage.

I have no strong opinions on the matter, but it shouldn't be too difficult to program. The question is- is it worth making two dozen extra sprites.

-The mention of Charles Barkley as a playable character piqued significant interest in the game. And I mean significant interest.

I'm really looking forward to him, too. I finally got around to beating SUaJ a week ago.

-Liero can spam the shotgun for long-range untouchability, since the shots travel all the way across the screen with unpredictable spread and formidable knockback; I was able to blast my opponents off the edge of the screen without ever letting them touch the ground.

The knockback for Liero's shotgun is getting reduced.

-Knife Throw was actually somewhat good, but the rest of his techniques felt like variations of ‘melee kick/staff attack’.

When I tested him with my friend, he still had a lot of interesting moves. Counter, knife throw, grab, rabbit kick, roundhouse kick and falling kick all have distinct uses. Staff spin is a little redundant in two player battles, but since it attacks on both sides it will probably see more use with four players. Staff swing is usable, but probably could be more unique. Punch is absolutely useless and needs to change.

-In the matches I played, all of which included the Golden Knight (I played both as and against), the duration of his Bonesaw didn't seem to be a problem, since I could run away - and I was playing as Liero, a character with absolutely pathetic speed and vertical capability.

Bonesaw mode is significantly stronger on a more typical stage, so I think it needs slightly weakened. I'll probably just end up making the meter deplete slightly faster and balancing the shockwave.

By the way, Liero, thanks to his range advantage, is actually not too bad against the Bonesaw. Slow, short-ranged characters, like Dwarf, are the weakest against it.

-Nikujin can continually hump the uppermost wall of the stage (the one that extends off-screen) forever, and be virtually unreachable to certain characters, like Naija, GK, or Dwarf.

He shouldn't be able to do this. He's limited to only four wall-jumps before landing back on the ground.

[mokesmoe]

Turner's up-S can be used infinitely,  allowing him to basicly fly.
I using chutup's trilby version, so that might be the problem, so can someone with the normal version test this?

[Soulliard]

Yeah, I found out about that when I tested it last night. It's already been fixed.

[godsavant]

Looking back at the OP for this thread, the design doc pic by Oracle doesn't really reflect the scale of the game, so I just wanted to give people a sense of how far we've come:



I left out Barkley and Juni out of sheer negligence, and b/c they're either not finished or not planned to be playable.

[William Broom]

Lovely!

[Plasticware]

...So, godsavant stumbled upon my ancient dA account.

I haven't actually gotten around to playing the latest build yet, but I'll be willing to do some odd jobs and help out as a spriter, I guess.