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[Soulliard]

It works, but there's no animation associated with it, and because it's timing-based, it's virtually impossible to test on your own, or against a character who's not yet animated.

Also, it doesn't work against unblockable attacks.

[mokesmoe]

When I press the button, nothing happens. He used to bob up and down faster to show he was in counter mode, but thats gone now. I've tried it multiple times, so unless it's really hard to pull off, I probably didn't mess up every time.
Even If I'm wrong, could someone else try the counter on the newest version to test it?

There goes most of my post. You posted while I was typing.

[Bleagle]

Hmm, I've been following Indie Brawl sometime but never tried the engine. I downloaded the newest build and ran the game. Title screen - character selection... Wait - Why are there just the borders for player 2 and player 3? Wheres player 1? And most important: How can I start the game!?
I tried all buttons on my keyboard (not exactly all...). I thought it were the action keys (f/o), or enter.
Please try to help me : /

[godsavant]

Hmm, I've been following Indie Brawl sometime but never tried the engine. I downloaded the newest build and ran the game. Title screen - character selection... Wait - Why are there just the borders for player 2 and player 3? Wheres player 1? And most important: How can I start the game!?
I tried all buttons on my keyboard (not exactly all...). I thought it were the action keys (f/o), or enter.
Please try to help me : /

Both players have to press their action buttons when their cursor is over the character they want. When they've made their selections, the game will start automatically. I haven't tried the new build, though, so I might be wrong.

[Bleagle]

I just figured it out myself but thank you! On a first look the engine looks very good. I have to try some of the other characters, but Quote and Najia look both very good. I assume there are more maps in the making, are there "scroll"-maps which move by themselves?
I remember a discussion about this but dont know what resulted from it.
Gotta sleep now, bye.

[Soulliard]

I'm glad you got it working. The title screen is a little obscure right now, but it will be clearer once we've made more title graphics.

As for scrolling maps- there will be some, but they haven't been made yet.

[godsavant]

If we're not going to kill players who drop off the screen, then I think knockback should be constant (i.e. not increase with damage), instead of sending people flying all over the place; as it is, (I just tested the build w/ 3 other people today) ranged attackers have somewhat of an advantage of melee-only ones (like Dwarf), since players are knocked back when hit, preventing them from getting in close-up attacks without launching their opponents backwards and having to chase them down again.

[Soulliard]

It's been said in the interface thread, but there should be one mode where falling off the screen doesn't kill the player. In that mode, knockback will be constant, so no worries there.

As far as ranged attackers having an advantage goes, most of this is balanced by their slow rate of fire (or, in Liero's case, lousy defense and maneuverability). I don't think the ranged attackers are overpowered. Range is a huge advantage, but so is power, speed, adaptability or defense.

You're correct that most attacks cause enough knockback that there is a lot of running around, and not much chaining attacks together (excepting Nikujin). I think this is, in general, a good thing, and part of the overall design of the game. High knockback leads to more movement, and movement makes battles more dynamic and fun.

I do think you have a good point, though. More low-knockback attacks would add more variety and fun, I think (low knockback often means fixed knockback, unaffected by the opponent's damage and weight, as is the case with most of Nikujin's attacks). It would relieve some of the uneven, staccato feel of combat, which fits certain characters better than others. I was moving in this direction with the last update, by reducing knockback from moves like GK's whirlwind. I'd like to move even further in this direction for the next update- characters like Turner, Trilby, Xoda, and GK ought to have more combo-able attacks.


To give you a bit of perspective, I'll tell you my general playstyle in fighting games. I often prefer characters with fairly good mobility, who rush in, deliver a well-timed, punishing blow, and then rush back out. I like to call these characters 'blitzers'. I don't generally play characters that focus more on light attacks or fancy combos. My favorite characters in Smash Bros are Pikachu and Ice Climbers, and my favorite characters in Soul Calibur and Astaroth, Cervantes, Nightmare (from SCII) and Hwang/Assassin (old school).

This has probably shaped the way I've developed characters, to an extent. While I don't think it has led to bad design, it has led to a somewhat limited design. In a way, I think this is inevitable in most indie projects, since there are a small number of people involved. Spelunky, for example, is a great game, but it appeals to only a limited number of people; on the other hand, we want Indie Brawl to have a fairly wide appeal. This means developing characters with a wide variety of fighting styles. I think we've been fairly successful- Quote and Liero make good ranged attackers, Nikujin is quick and combo-focused, Naija is more balanced, and Dwarf, GK and Turner are heavier brawlers. But, because of the amount of influence I've had on the project, the characters tend to fit into the 'blitzer' mold. Fortunately, since this is a community project, my design choices can be balanced out by others, like Godsavant. I'm making an active effort to make characters that will appeal to different types of players- like I did with Nikujin and Liero. Hopefully, there will be an even better variety in the future.


Wow. That post was much longer than I expected. So, er, what else did you think during the playtesting?

[godsavant]

Ah, I see what your point. I forgot most mainstream players will want to stick to one or two 'favorite character(s)' instead of playing them all.

Because most of the other guys didn't recognize any of the characters, they chose random characters.

We played four games:

1.) Golden Knight (Me) vs. Nikujin: This was a total joke. I knew how kickass GK was, so I started off fresh by spamming Stick Throw and Whirlwind (I tried about 15 times unsuccessfully to use GK's ^S Shoryuken, but it never connected), while Nikujin dicked around Through-Slashing himself off the stage. Just when Nikujin figured out he could use Shuriken, I busted out the Bonesaw...and promptly fell off the stage .

Nikujin's practical moves seem to be limited to Shuriken, Through Slash, and Spear Barrage, though that last one does quite a number on most opponents. I won.

Also, the Through Slash cloud trial looks really ugly in midair.

2.) Liero (Me) vs. Lugaru: This was against the same guy as last game. He'd learned the ropes by now, and also found that Lugaru's Knife is an excellent sniping weapon. On the other hand, I was too busy getting blown off the stage by the recoil of my own attacks, so both of us lost most of our lives by falling off the level - Liero's grappling hook seems rather picky about when it wants to work. He won.

3.) Dwarf (Me) vs. Lugaru: Different guy this time, but since he'd just seen my last opponent kick my ass w/ Lugaru, he chose the rabbit as well. Geing as egotistic as I am, I wanted to show off my animation, but what I forgot was that Dwarf was so short-ranged, so I ended up just Catapulting myself all over the stage (hey, it's faster than his run)while getting Knifed by Lugaru . This is one this I'd like to bring up: On the upper left part of the level, where there is a drop-through platform with a wall on the left side and two solid blocks on the right, a character standing on the blocks can infinitely snipe out ones standing on the platform; since I was getting high in damage, I would get Knifed, try to chase down Lugaru and fail b/c Dwarf is slow as all hell, then proceed to Catapult around until Lugaru recharged his knife. I predominantly used Shield Charge (epic fail, I know) b/c I couldn't face down Lugaru in hand-to-hand combat b/c of the fucking high knockback, thus discounting about half of Dwarf's movelist. I never tested Crossbow, and Tantrum is somewhat useless in the Outer Wall, where it often speeds the player right off the edge of the stage. I lost.

I think the problem here was that PenguinSeph's original concept was to "pressurize ranged attackers" into close-range combat and "stop [ranged attackers] from dealing damage to him". In going for faithfulness, we've lost that guideline, and as a consequence, Dwarf is inherently overpowered agains his fellow close-combatants but useless against any character marginally faster than him. If not tweaking the moves, at least give melee brawlers some way to 'shield' against ranged attacks, like Naija's Shield Song.

4.) Quote (Me) vs. Golden Knight: The good thing about GK is that you can not know how to play and still kick ass, since every one of GK's moves is offensive and somewhat deadly. On the other hand, Quote's attacks all feel kind of the same ('moderate-speed projectile'), so I ended up spamming Spirit King and Polar Star, not really bothering with:

Fireball- The attack duration is horrendous for a move that fires just one small projectile...my friend went "whoa, did your gun break?"

Rocket Launcher - Not only does the pathetically small explosion make it difficult to aim in midjump (which is the only time it's marginally useful), but Quote's firing sprite while airborne. makes him look like he's standing on air. I was thinking that the Rocket exposion should be more like a smaller version of Liero's Chiquita Bomb, so that it's somewhat easier to catch opponents not directly standing at the impact point.

Sword - What the fuck? At first I thought Phantom King had glitched up. Considering that its knockback is supposed to get your opponent the hell away from you, its slowness and incredibly short range makes it much more appealing to simply push them back w/ a Phantom King and boost the hell outta there. I'd prefer an attack like Liero's Fan that does no damage, but pushes people away.

    On the other hand, everyone seems to love playing as GK. Definitely a success, although his hurt animation looks awkward when viewed repeatedly.

In conclusion, it's definitely a fun game, the matches were way more intense than I expected.

[Soulliard]

Ah, I see what your point. I forgot most mainstream players will want to stick to one or two 'favorite character(s)' instead of playing them all.

Well, there's two main reasons to have a large roster. It adds variety, so battles don't all end up the same, and it allows for people to choose characters that fit their play styles the best. I agree with your point that the roster needs more characters with light attacks.

Golden Knight (Me) vs. Nikujin: This was a total joke. Nikujin's practical moves seem to be limited to Shuriken, Through Slash, and Spear Barrage, though that last one does quite a number on most opponents. I won.

Nikujin requires more skill to use effectively than most of the other characters, so the result isn't too surprising. His other moves can lead to some crazy combos, but you need to know how to use him correctly. Head Stab is insanely strong, but requires good aim to use.

I think, in the hands of a more skilled player, Nikujin would be pretty good. I know Kovski enjoyed using him, so I'd like to hear his thoughts on Nikujin's balance.

Liero (Me) vs. Lugaru: Lugaru's Knife is an excellent sniping weapon. Liero's grappling hook seems rather picky about when it wants to work.

Turner's knife might work better if fired in an arc? It's not really supposed to be an exceptional ranged weapon. Turner and Dwarf, the newest additions to the roster, probably have lots of quirks like this that need to be ironed out.

The grappling hook can only be used once in the air, regardless of whether or not it works. I might change that if it's too frustrating. Also, its range is not unlimited.

Dwarf (Me) vs. Lugaru: This is one this I'd like to bring up: On the upper left part of the level, where there is a drop-through platform with a wall on the left side and two solid blocks on the right, a character standing on the blocks can infinitely snipe out ones standing on the platform; since I was getting high in damage, I would get Knifed, try to chase down Lugaru and fail b/c Dwarf is slow as all hell, then proceed to Catapult around until Lugaru recharged his knife.

If I understand what you're saying, it's too easy to get wall-comboed?

If not tweaking the moves, at least give melee brawlers some way to 'shield' against ranged attacks, like Naija's Shield Song.

This is an excellent point. Naija has her shield song, GK can absorb, and Turner can counter, but Dwarf has no real ranged defense.

His melee attacks probably could use a bit longer reach, and he could lunge forward when wrestling. I could also allow his shield charge to reflect projectiles.

Or, if it's a big problem, I could always just add shielding back in.

Quote (Me) vs. Golden Knight: Fireball- The attack duration is horrendous for a move that fires just one small projectile...my friend went "whoa, did your gun break?"

Fireball is a great spammable attack in certain situations. I could up the speed a bit; I just hope it doesn't become cheap or abusable.

Rocket Launcher - Not only does the pathetically small explosion make it difficult to aim in midjump (which is the only time it's marginally useful), but Quote's firing sprite while airborne. makes him look like he's standing on air. I was thinking that the Rocket exposion should be more like a smaller version of Liero's Chiquita Bomb, so that it's somewhat easier to catch opponents not directly standing at the impact point.

This is interesting. In the games I've played, the missile launcher was so effective that it was basically Quote's signature move. I could make it a bit faster at the cost of some power, and up the area a little, I suppose. As for the sprite- let's wait for approval before worrying about that.

Sword - What the fuck? At first I thought Phantom King had glitched up. Considering that its knockback is supposed to get your opponent the hell away from you, its slowness and incredibly short range makes it much more appealing to simply push them back w/ a Phantom King and boost the hell outta there. I'd prefer an attack like Liero's Fan that does no damage, but pushes people away.

The blade is still a lot faster than King, and it's reach isn't bad. I've found it useful, at least. I could reduce the cooldown a bit, but I'm worried about a problem I had with the blade in the past- it was as good as any other character's melee attacks, making Quote a master of both melee and ranged combat.


Thanks for the in-depth playtest report. This is the next-best thing to actually making friends to test this with, and it's always helpful to hear different perspectives.

[godsavant]

I think, in the hands of a more skilled player, Nikujin would be pretty good. I know Kovski enjoyed using him, so I'd like to hear his thoughts on Nikujin's balance.

Yeah, I'd like to hear from Kovski. I have to admit I'm not very good w/ Nikujin.

The grappling hook can only be used once in the air, regardless of whether or not it works. I might change that if it's too frustrating. Also, its range is not unlimited.

Nah, I think it's just that it doesn't really work as a recovery b/c you can't really thrust yourself back up onto the platform after grappling onto the wall. As you said, maybe a minor auto-walljump would be sufficient?

If I understand what you're saying, it's too easy to get wall-comboed?

Not exactly...when I was playing Dwarf, the knife would catch the very tippy-top of his sprite when I was standing on the platform, dealing me damage. I couldn't duck or make myself shorter to avoid the projectile, yet neither could I jump up onto the blocks to retaliate, since that would mean getting knifed in midair, knocking me back down onto the platform.

The blade is still a lot faster than King, and it's reach isn't bad. I've found it useful, at least. I could reduce the cooldown a bit, but I'm worried about a problem I had with the blade in the past- it was as good as any other character's melee attacks, making Quote a master of both melee and ranged combat.

The way I see it, Quote is a ranged specialist; even in Cave Story, he never actually goes toe-to-toe using his sword, instead throwing it (Level 1) or doing some anime-style whirlwind (Level 3). Would it be acceptable if the Sword was changed so that he had no melee attacks? 

[Soulliard]

Probably not. He needs at least one fairly fast keep-away move.

[Fuzz]

Rocket Launcher - Not only does the pathetically small explosion make it difficult to aim in midjump (which is the only time it's marginally useful), but Quote's firing sprite while airborne. makes him look like he's standing on air. I was thinking that the Rocket exposion should be more like a smaller version of Liero's Chiquita Bomb, so that it's somewhat easier to catch opponents not directly standing at the impact point.

Interesting. I found that the Rocket Launcher was Quote's best attack. In the Outer Wall, a very useful move when the other player is in the top left corner is to booster up from the elevated platform (middle top) and then fire down with the Rocket Launcher. I found that very effective when I was playing against Naija. It took a little practice to figure out how to do it properly, but it ends up being very useful (but not overpowered). I think that making it resemble Chiquita Bomb would really take away from Quote.

[mokesmoe]

If not tweaking the moves, at least give melee brawlers some way to 'shield' against ranged attacks, like Naija's Shield Song.

I have an idea, though it is tweaking the moves.
You could make Dwarf's shield rush block or reflect projectiles with the shield.

[battlerager]

If not tweaking the moves, at least give melee brawlers some way to 'shield' against ranged attacks, like Naija's Shield Song.

I have an idea, though it is tweaking the moves.
You could make Dwarf's shield rush block or reflect projectiles with the shield.

That's exactly what NightshadeB/Brain Soup said and was my first idea, too.

Just make that attack block or deflect projectiles (just in one direction, of course), it would make a lot of sense.