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Author Topic: Your ideas for a "Metroid-Rethought"  (Read 6416 times)
Fallsburg
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2012, 07:52:42 AM »

Combine this with Procedural Generation and actually solid level design

Wait, huh? I don't think procedural generation is a good idea for a Metroid like. The game relys far too heavily on the quality of the world.

Well, if the procedural generation was done well, I think it would be a great idea. 
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2012, 02:14:26 PM »

Combine this with Procedural Generation and actually solid level design

Wait, huh? I don't think procedural generation is a good idea for a Metroid like. The game relys far too heavily on the quality of the world.

Well, if the procedural generation was done well, I think it would be a great idea. 
Key phrase is "if...done well." If it were truly done well there's no reason it wouldn't be a great idea, but I've yet to see procedural generation come anywhere close to the level of quality games like Metroid demand to be really great.
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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2012, 05:13:49 AM »

If I recall correctly, attempting to re-think Metroid is what killed it in the first place..Just saying..
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st33d
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2012, 06:13:57 AM »

Has anyone seen one of the big blown up maps of the original metroid? They're really awful. I'm pretty sure there's a bit of rose-tinted-spectacles going on here because a lot of it is just endless corridors or columns and with loads of repeated sections.

A PG metroidvania would require a fairly advanced graphing system to plan out locking areas off to exploration until you acquired item X whilst also preventing severe cases of sequence breaking, but not minor cases.

It would be really cool. And really bloody difficult to make.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2012, 06:17:24 AM »

On some related note I will drop my new vid here so you see more fragments of my ambition:





btw. I don't mind to kill Metroid if my purpose is served. Metroid gave me just some fundamental impulses, but everything else is open to certain changes.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 06:30:34 AM by J-Snake » Logged

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Fallsburg
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2012, 06:38:18 AM »

Has anyone seen one of the big blown up maps of the original metroid? They're really awful. I'm pretty sure there's a bit of rose-tinted-spectacles going on here because a lot of it is just endless corridors or columns and with loads of repeated sections.
Quote
Agreed.  I think that the rose colored glasses thing is a combination of 2 things:
1) People don't really remember Metroid, only how revolutionary it was at the time.
2) People are thinking more of Super Metroid
A PG metroidvania would require a fairly advanced graphing system to plan out locking areas off to exploration until you acquired item X whilst also preventing severe cases of sequence breaking, but not minor cases.

It would be really cool. And really bloody difficult to make.

I don't think that creating a procedural system that could create something at the level of Metroid would be too difficult.  Super Metroid, yeah, that would be hard to do.  
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 12:14:30 PM by Fallsburg » Logged
st33d
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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2012, 07:21:36 AM »

I think you underestimate how difficult it is to create a PG platformer where all the surfaces can be visited, let alone locked away.

It took me over a year to solve the problem with no jump mechanic (and that actually makes tracking the issue easier, but it didn't help that I kept thinking I'd nailed it when I hadn't). Without bombs and ropes, how do you address the issue?

I'm not saying it can't be done (because I have a good idea of how to adapt the solution to a jump mechanic now). But I don't think it will be straightforward. And certainly may terrorise someone without a lot of PG experience.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2012, 12:10:55 PM »

My idea of procedural generation in terms of geometry is to clearly divide the designer created stuff from the algorithmic areas. But procedural generation is not in my focus for the first installment.

In general how I want to control progression and interaction-depth is to provide an environment with different materials and parameters. According to your equipment you are limited in what you can destroy and with what you can interact. For example if you don't have magnetic tech-toys you won't be able to use some metallic properties of the environment to progress.

Like you can see in my video above(

), I put an exceptionally heavy focus on the movement and combat. It is just the beginning, grapple-beam and other weapons in combination will make it more complete. I want to make the grapple-beam grapple everywhere, not just on predetermined blocks, that just feels too restrictive and artificial. Grappling everywhere makes exploration and action-depth just much more exciting because you feel more free.

I want also to face the player with the need to master some of the movement-combos in order to traverse certain environments. Regardless of what one thinks about that idea I will put it in, you can count on that. How do you like that ? Also imagine how awesome boss-fights can be with my high-end controls. I can make it a requirement to apply cool actions in order to have success. Action-puzzles should evolve, all the metroids don't exploit this aspect. That is why a true change is needed.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 06:57:21 PM by J-Snake » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2012, 05:31:41 AM »

If I recall correctly, attempting to re-think Metroid is what killed it in the first place..Just saying..

Kind of agree with that. Childhood nostalgia aside, what realy captured me about Metriod when playing it as a kid was the feeling of solitude and exploration in freaky hostile environment. Also it was realy tough and unforgiving at some places witch realy gave it kind of a claustophobic feel, almost survival horror like. Metroid 3 added all the cool powerups and hard to pull off special moves giving it a realy cool flavour.

I would like to see a scaled down Metroid. You, alone on Zebes, deep undergound with big bad monsters waiting around the next corner.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2012, 07:21:52 AM »

Metroid, as it is, is mainly just explore and progress, there is no other play value. That is why so many make a speed-run out of it, to give it replay-value. I want to give the game some more value, because it deserves it, and I don't have to kill the exploration part to achieve it.

But the way of thinking behind it opens up a lot of possibilities which are not used. What it mainly lacks is action-depth. I want to provide an advanced combat system. I have no clue why people don't get excited about that, especially in a game where you have to be a sophisticated killer-machine and deal with some great tech-toys. Traversing environment and fighting enemies can be so much more amazing and interesting.
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« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2012, 09:24:59 AM »

I want to provide an advanced combat system. I have no clue why people don't get excited about that,

Well, personly I find the later Metroid games to very focused on action and combat. What I like about the early Metroid games is the atmosphere, well designed levels, wierd environment and strange music. If anything I would like less combat. Your video looks cool though, prove me wrong!
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J-Snake
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« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2012, 11:47:40 AM »

You are surely talking about otherM. I guess games like that are the reason why people make up a negative mind about action. It is what I call animated action played just with 2 buttons. I thate it aswell. It fakes the player into believing he has control and he can do cool stuff. It is not action-depth. What I am talking about is control and repercussions in every game-frame, taking your environment and equipment into account. That is a new level of action-quality, a new amazing way to think about combat itself. My system exploits the properties of the environment and your tech-toys. This adds a world of depth in itself waiting to be explored. Perhaps I am a pioneer in this field since it is difficult to design and implement properly. So big studios simply remain with "animated action". When I start on SMTac I can show a concept of proof about what is feasable in real-time and how amazing a boss-fight can be that requires an advanced-movement and action-set up.
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« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2012, 12:31:57 PM »

J-Snake: In that case, you should check out Metal Warriors (SNES), I think that captures a little more of the vibe you're going for. And yes, it does include a PvP versus mode, and a more exploration-based story/campaign mode. Pretty terrific for it's time.


Rethinking Metroid gave us Super Metroid. Rethinking Super Metroid gave us crapticles.

Conceptually, platforming PGC is more about creating a sense of flow and direction, and successful Metroiding is about corralling appropriate abilities in appropriate locations. Here's where design can get dicey, because there's a few ways to go about it, depending on your concept of what a Metroidvania is like.

Metroid-style: In this case, you'll want to produce an area for each item, based around that item. The item location is something the player can always reach with fundamental abilities (the rest of the area is designed for player failure without the item), and provides a distinct type of challenge to it. (Clearly, this will scale with complimentary ability sequences; you aren't going to use Super Missiles for the sake of scoring basic Missiles.)

So you stumble around a new area you can't totally circumnavigate until you've acquired what you need to do so (right around the corner), which then has a simple feedback loop/escape point from the item location, a successful reattempt with your new ability, and that sets the stage for other, later sections.

tl;dr:
New Area (Failed Navigation) > Item > Successful Navigation (repeat)

Castlevania-style: Kind of similar, but instead of acquiring an object in one area to navigate around in that area, you acquire each power in sequencial order, so you can navigate around a different area to acquire the next. It's a little more indirect, but just as effective.

tl;dr:
Item > New Area > Successful Navigation (repeat)


Then comes the item flow. While some cross boundaries in-between, for the most part items come down to two types: Navigation Items and Combat Items. This is an important factor in preventing staleness in game of this variety; as it lets you weave back and forth between them, rather than embracing one at the expense of the other.

The areas are also set up to alternate/compliment the focus as well, which is precisely *why* people can play the well-designed ones for hours on end; and why more of the later, failed titles (which weigh too heavily on one or the other) feel all grindy and monotonous - because basically, they are.

Circle of the Moon and Harmony of Dissonance are particularly combat-focused, so navigation in them is boring and feels like a chore; and Zero Mission is almost totally navigation-puzzle-focused (and lacking in combat), which is why games like Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night are so much better than either one. Their lopsided focus on one aspect over the other not only leaves a void in the opposite's wake, but the excessive focus on their strong aspect also makes them more monotonous.

Mostly used those because they're the more recognizable examples, not the worst offenders. I'd say those go to each of the series' respective "II"s... sadly another consequence of rethinking? Ironically, it's Met II's combat-focus and CV II's navigation-focus that fails them both. Makes me wonder what you'd get if you put the two teams together...

EDIT:

Quote
What I am talking about is control and repercussions in every game-frame, taking your environment and equipment into account. That is a new level of action-quality, a new amazing way to think about combat itself. My system exploits the properties of the environment and your tech-toys. This adds a world of depth in itself waiting to be explored.

Sorry to burst your bubble here, J; but this is present-day brown-shooter central. Wink You're basically trying to pioneer Modern Warfare for SNES. (Sadly? Although I guess there's plenty you can learn from it though, like how players learn to use your weapons/combinations. Still, it sounds more like a glorified psychological beta test than an actual game.)
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J-Snake
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« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2012, 01:14:38 PM »

You are making shallow assumptions about combat-systems. Brown-Shooters have mainly linear weapons and a basic movement set-up with less interaction depth. SMTac is a shooter, but with equipment which allows you to exploit the environment and combat-situations in a greater variety. In SMTac you are not only the weapon, you are the bullet Grin That's über awesome.

What is psychological beta-test?
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« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2012, 02:25:17 PM »

Giving players weapon/item combos, and observing how they exploit and optimize it; because that's what competitive gamers (like those in fighters and shooters) do. And last I checked, even BS games have parabolic and geometric weapons, haphazard as that may be in actual gameplay.

Being the bullet is a little different. But my guess is that the main difference will be that it becomes a bit more defensive in nature, less about controlling space and more about controlling the tighter gaps within it.

And ftr, I didn't say it was, I said it looked like.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2012, 04:09:25 PM »

Giving players weapon/item combos, and observing how they exploit and optimize it
Isn't it a great thing to add and make a requirement in metroid? I only see how it adds, but it doesn't subtract. Also I would prefer Metroid Prime to have Modern Warfare - quality in aiming.

Typical brown shooters have a basic setup in movement and weapon-system. Most of the weapons differ only by different parameter-setting. For example if you have a revolver vs a machine-gun, both of them don't fundamentally change the way you can use them. You see a straight line to your enemy, you shoot, that's it. It only exploits your setting in one or few ways. I add a concept of movement-combos and a complementary set of tech toys which exploit everything in a greater variety. For me that is more interesting and fun to play because you can work out completely different strategies how to approach combat-situations. It is a shooter but it has many charecteristics to a fighter. It is best suited for one vs one. For example if you are facing an opponent who is very good at shooting, but you are very good at evading and traversing the environment then you can keep your opponent away while charging your weapon to the max. Now the pay-off is that you can decide the battle with one single shot, if you manage not to miss it. How cool is that? That and much more is nothing you will find in modern warfare.
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« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2012, 05:15:39 PM »

You should play Unreal Tournament 2004 for a good example of this kind of combat. There's a huge focus on movement and mobility compared to most shooters.
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« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2012, 05:36:08 PM »

See also: Warsow.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2012, 05:39:55 PM »

Yes, I know UT. It comes closer than other shooters but I would suggest stopping comparing 3D shooters to my ambition. I am making something different. My combat is like a fighter, but taking the environment into account. (but watching some shooter-suggestions I never heard of cannot hurt, thanks)
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J-Snake
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« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2012, 06:37:36 PM »

If you are interested I can explain on a deeper level why my combat-ambition cannot be compared to regular 3D-shooters. In a regular 3D shooter it is comparingly easy to implement A.I. which can always beat you. It is because it heavily rewards primitive skills such as aiming. If the bot has perfect aim he has already huge advantage.
You get some more inside about the depth of a system by comparing how difficult it is to implement an A.I. that can deal with it.
In SMTac however, challenging A.I. is extremely difficult to implement. Even when the bot has perfect aim it almost means nothing since most of the beams don't have "infinite speed"(they give the opponent some time to react) and a lot of other factors like your suit-energy-management and actual awareness of the environment have all to come together in order to provide a serious challenge for good players. It is not enough that the bot knows his waypoints and navigates through them in a linear fashion and perfectly shoots stuff. He has to get an "awareness" of how to exploit his environment in an economic way, taking suit-energy-management into account while estimating and adapting to the changes the player is making. If the player has fully charged weapon-arm then the A.I. needs to get a sense on how to keep escaping and holding distance if it doesn't want to end up a kid's play. Then just escaping is not enough, it needs to be competitive an try to charge the weapon-arm at the same time. But charging requires suit-energy and cannot charge if the suit power(energy-donation/per time) is currently going to other functions such as your speed-booster. It needs to find reasonable trade-offs even in this sub-system. That is a completely new quality of depth.
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