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[Soulliard]

You can either limit the number of greens in screen

This would be a good solution.

>S-  Sticks his arms and summons cube in front of him. If the cube gets summoned at the same place where another character is, then the character gets "encased", "stuck" in the cube.

I don't think a lot of players would understand what was going on, since normally items aren't solid.

Aaaaaand that's it . Basically, he can do something without having to resort to cubes.

Well, it's the same with my move list. If he isn't carrying an item, he just uses a shadow cube instead.

BTW, I'd rather have to manually summon cubes and launch them downwards to recover from falls than having some ^S move that does just that.

Throwing items downwards doesn't normally launch you upwards, so new characters wouldn't realize this would be how to recover. Plus, there are times that you wouldn't want to go upwards, but still want to throw an item downwards. Finally, it helps to consistently map ^S to a recovery move, so that when players go "ocrapocrap I'm gonna die!" they instinctively know which move to use.

I kinda wanted >S to be a grappling move where Lyle smashed his enemy until he was shaped as a cube, too.

This would require too many graphics.

I didn't get very far in Lyle, so I'm wondering how many of these moves are actually in the original. Are shadow cubes in it? What about huge cubes? Or turning enemies into cubes?

I don't know if they're actually called shadow cubes, but Lyle can eventually summon his own cubes that work just like blue cubes. Huge cubes are also part of the game.

Trapping enemies in cubes and turning them into cubes are not in the game, to my knowledge.

[shig]

For me, the problem with your move list is that he shouldn't be able to instantaneously shoot cubes out at people.
I'd like to keep the mechanics similar to the original game. First you summon, then you walk around holding your cube, and then you throw.

Plus, there are times that you wouldn't want to go upwards, but still want to throw an item downwards.

Would only work with summoned cubes (shadow or red). Plus it wouldn't be some huge leap. Throwing cubes downward would generate very small upwards momentum, not nearly enough to stop his fall. But enought to make him fall a lot slower if you keep doing it. More or less like it was ingame. (until you got level 3 cube magic, at least.)

Finally, it helps to consistently map ^S to a recovery move, so that when players go "ocrapocrap I'm gonna die!" they instinctively know which move to use.

It'd take some time getting used to it, I guess. But it would keep the feel of the game IMO.
Plus, Liero's ninja rope is going to get you killed sometimes too until you get the hang of it. I think we can make Lyle a little bit less newbie friendly in that aspect.

I don't think a lot of players would understand what was going on, since normally items aren't solid.

IMO, there would be no problem if we just give some visual hints. Like for example, the victim would look stunned/hurt for some time before being encased. Also, the cube could jump a little like as if someone was inside trying to break out of it.

This would require too many graphics.

But would be by far the coolest move in this game. 
Too bad brute force just doesn't fit very well with Lyle.

[Soulliard]

For me, the problem with your move list is that he shouldn't be able to instantaneously shoot cubes out at people.

I thought it could be his thing. Remember, we're not just trying to recreate indie characters in another setting. We want this to be a good fighting game, too, and in some cases, that means we're going to have to reimagine characters.

Would only work with summoned cubes (shadow or red). Plus it wouldn't be some huge leap. Throwing cubes downward would generate very small upwards momentum, not nearly enough to stop his fall. But enought to make him fall a lot slower if you keep doing it. More or less like it was ingame. (until you got level 3 cube magic, at least.)

Lyle needs a recovery move. In LiCS, he could double jump by throwing a cube straight downwards. This seems like an obvious choice for his recovery move. I don't see what you have against it.

Plus, Liero's ninja rope is going to get you killed sometimes too until you get the hang of it. I think we can make Lyle a little bit less newbie friendly in that aspect.

The difference is that, even though Liero's recovery is unusual, at least the player knows which buttons to push to use it. No one would ever be able to guess that vA(w/ item) would be a recovery move.

IMO, there would be no problem if we just give some visual hints. Like for example, the victim would look stunned/hurt for some time before being encased. Also, the cube could jump a little like as if someone was inside trying to break out of it.

It still seems like an obscure move, and it doesn't work well with Lyle's other moves (which tend to be ranged).

But would be by far the coolest move in this game.

That spot is reserved for Dwarf's Tantrum.

[null & void]

When I saw Assassin Asha was on the list of "possibilities" I lost my ability to speak coherently for several minutes. Asha is easily my favorite villain in any game to date.

Because I really do need to make at least one game before people will take a huge project like Qlippoth seriously and because I REALLY want to use Asha whenever this is finished, I downloaded Game Maker. I'll do everything I can to see my favorite teleporting bastard in this game. Qlippoth can wait!

Alright, first off: Asha needs a movelist, right? I'll try doing a portrait afterwards.

Speaking completely relatively in terms of damage here, so A's "high" damage is significantly lower than S's "high" damage, and both are lower than most other characters' "high" damage, since Asha is very speed oriented.

A:  The basic laser dagger slash. Low damage, lots of knockback.

A^: The upward laser dagger slash. Higher damage, somewhat smaller knockback.

A>: I'm thinking a "blink"-stab, where he teleports a short distance and shanks the first poor bastard in the way. Decent damage, stuns.

Av: Blinks into the air above the nearest enemy, drops down dagger first. No knockback, high damage.

--

S: The "circle" teleport that assassins so love, press again when at a favorable position to manifest. No warmup, no cooldown. I'm not sure what to do about this without breaking Asha's nature except maybe make the "manifesting" choice more or less hard to pick. Alternatively, Asha could die extremely fast in a straight up battle, making skillful use of this a REQUIREMENT. Which does fit the charater (even in the second battle he didn't get a full health bar when every other boss had multiple bars.)

S^: Leaps up to throw 3 of those red sickles, making it a recovery move and an attack. The sickles would travel down in a cone at roughly a 45 degree angle, have a very small splash damage range and have no knockback with a decent little bit of damage.

S>: The triple plasma cannon blast. I expect this would have pretty decent cooldown, where most of the rest would be very fast. Damage, knockback both at "ouch" (but not "hax" or even "high", just enough to say, "wow that smarted") levels. Medium warm-up.

Sv: The ground slam from the second battle, huge knockback, pretty decent damage, huge cooldown (even more than the plasma cannon). Long aerial warmup.

The one thing it's missing is the along-the-ground plasma cannon and the dual plasma cannon, but I don't think he used the latter (I'm pretty sure it was only standard assassins) and the former would be a bit less stylish than the ground slam. I also suppose it's missing the shocking choke, but since that's more an annihilator thing and is only demonstrated in the cutscene with Dan I wouldn't say it's particularly required.

Thoughts?

[William Broom]

We kind of, but not completely, agreed that we would only have one character from each game, and I figured Asha was implicitly removed from the roster because of this. Also, Nightshade put down Asha as a support character instead.

That said, I do really like the idea of Asha as a playable character, in fact I think I suggested it first. He would be a very interesting character to use. So if other people support it, then maybe we can do it.

 I like your movelist, the only thing I would change maybe is the S neutral. By circle teleport you mean the thing where he sort of pings in and out rapidly, right? I thought he would be better served by a controllable teleport, similar to Trilby's smoke bomb. The difference being that Asha's teleport is faster, and he can teleport through anything, but if he teleports into a wall, he takes a huge amount of damage (analogous to losing his arm in the original game) and cannot move at all except to teleport back out again. In fact, to stop him from stalling, he would take damage every frame that he is inside the wall.
To go along with this, I would remove teleporting as a feature of all his other moves such as his A>. Instead, the player gets the choice of using the attack straight-up or linking it with the teleport move.

And - great to have you on board!

[battlerager]

Cabadath

Stats- Cabadath is incredibly quick and agile, thanks to his teleportation, and he has excellent reach. His defense is a little low, however.

A- Scythe- A quick horizontal swipe with his weapon.

>A- Get Over Here- Extends spear axe-end forward, then pulls. Pulls opponent closer if it hits.

^A- Skewer- Cabadath stabs his spear straight into the air.

vA- Chzo- A red tentacle attacks from the ground in front of him.

S- Teleport Dodge- Cabadath teleports backwards, then charges forwards with his spear. Can be used to dodge an enemy's attack.

>S- Teleport Charge- Cabadath teleports forwards and swipes with his scythe.

^S- Teleport Drill- Cabadath teleports upwards, spinning his weapon like a drill as he reappears.

vS- Teleport Lunge- Cabadath teleports to the ground, where he shoves the spear head downwards.

Sounds pretty good. Not entirely sure about "Chzo" yet, but I don't have a better suggestion right now.

I always imagine him moving a tad bit slow but being able to quickly move around the place due to his teleporting. (In the game, you never see him run. He walks very slowly but then teleports in the blink of an eye, killing stuff.)
Also, he attacks very fast but rarely and with lots of power in the attack.

I imagine his attacks being very strong and fast but with a lot of cooldown before he can move or attack again (compared to other character's attacks).
That way, Cabadath players need to make sure their attacks connect or their defense will be wide open.


That's just my 2 cent.

EDIT: Oh, Asha. That would be a second character with teleportation as his main schtick. Nice.

[null & void]

William, the only problem with taking away the teleportation on the normal attacks is with Av. It's all but impossible without it, and all of the assassins did it that specific way. I guess the A> could be something a bit stretchier with the source amterial, perhaps a dash in the same vein as Iosa's once you knock her out of her exoskeleton. But Av is just impossible to fix any other way without cheating, like making it useless except during a jump (which would be silly IMO).

I like your suggestion of the damage in walls, but I disagree with the controllable teleport since even though assassins demonstrated that ability, it would be somewhat difficult to pull off allowing the player to have that kind of control without some sort of alternate "mode" or something. Plus I think the circular teleporting is more memorable as a whole, it's certainly something that made me go "wow these guys are badasses" while playing the game.

However, I have a thought: maybe during the circular teleport, every time one of the flashes is in a wall you lose health. It would make you require a mental map of the area (as assassins in Iji did), still supports the teleporting-into-walls-is-dangerous bit, and keeps the (IMO most memorable part of the game) flashing circle teleport. We can also give the fellow a little bit more health than I had in mind to make up for this, which ALSO makes it stick somewhat closer to the source material. (I was thinking something like 3 shotgun blasts to kill him dead.)

As for doing Asha? I'll do him by myself if I have to. I've already emailed Soulliard asking for unregistered-friendly source. I only have doubts regarding my graphical ability, though I'm sure if I implement literally everything else someone will get around to making that.

And thanks, it's good to be a part.

[Soulliard]

Re: Battlerager
I'm not sure about the Chzo attack either, but it was on Zaratustra's suggested move list and I thought it was pretty unique. Otherwise, I'm with you on your suggestions, slow walking speed and long cooldowns, but short warmups and crazy teleportation.

Re: Erin
I like the movelist, but I honestly don't think Asha's likely to make the roster. Iji's already being honored with another character and a stage, so I think we ought to spread the indie love a little more before adding a second character. If Cave Story can't have two characters, I don't think Iji can either.

I like your enthusiasm, though, so I'll try to get an unregistered version of the source to you tomorrow. Just be aware that without the registered version you'll encounter some glitches.

[null & void]

We already have two characters from the Chzo games, though I grant that one of them has a game his own. I think it's difficult to set a precedent here with such ambiguous bits as that. Maybe it'd be better to "strongly encourage" working on different games so rabid fangirls like myself can still contribute.

[JLJac]

What about this for Lyle:

If you do not hold any item, A is assigned to only one thing, hold it to produce a shadow cube. This is undependant of what direction buttons you hold down at the time.

If you hold an item, most times the shadow cube, A gets new functions, like this:

A  -  Throw, throws the cube like usual
A> - Long throw, throws forward at a high speed
A^ - Throw up, when you push A the upward movement from the jump is cancelled
Av - Lyle throws downwards, himself getting higher, just like in the original game. Lyle has no ordinary double jump.

Maybe if you use the Av standing on the ground Lyle will release the cube so that others can pick it up.

S can hold other attacks, like the big orange cube and such. I would like an attack moving in a sinus curve, since the sinus curve is a really common behaviour for stuff in the game. Maybe some attack could spawn an enemy from the game? Or S can be assigned to creating other cubes, like green or red cubes.

[shig]

OMNIQUOTE GO

I thought it could be his thing. Remember, we're not just trying to recreate indie characters in another setting. We want this to be a good fighting game, too, and in some cases, that means we're going to have to reimagine characters.

What if you don't HAVE to reimagine Lyle? Give him some summoning time, and he can throw cubes like any other character would regularly throw an item.

Lyle needs a recovery move. In LiCS, he could double jump by throwing a cube straight downwards. This seems like an obvious choice for his recovery move. I don't see what you have against it.

I never opposed to giving him the ability to throw cubes downward and use that as his recovery. I just want it to work slightly differently than the other characters's.

The difference is that, even though Liero's recovery is unusual, at least the player knows which buttons to push to use it. No one would ever be able to guess that vA(w/ item) would be a recovery move.

I can see where you are coming from, but if we do it that way, for me it just wouldn't feel quite like lyle without you having to summon the cubes yourself. 
I think the players would understand right after they've seen it once.

It still seems like an obscure move

It would work with the correct visual hints. Maybe Lyle could even GRAB the opponent before summoning if it isn't obvious enough.

and it doesn't work well with Lyle's other moves (which tend to be ranged).

Of course it does. It works well with his fighting style EXACTLY because he has to keep distance most of the time.
It's a high-risk attack wich involves getting you into your most vulnerable position. That'd be part of this attack's charm for me, really.
And also, after it connects, it'd be very rewarding. Since you could kick them away afterwards and prevent them from recovering by throwing cubes or you could just hit them with your strongest attacks, the red cube and/or the HUGE cube.

That spot is reserved for Dwarf's Tantrum.

...You win this time.

[Valter]

shig, my only problem with your ideas is just that, while they do follow various things that happen in Lyle in Cube Sector, they just don't seem right for the character. For one thing, Lyle's an essentially passive character. He doesn't have any "attacks", per say. He uses the objects around him to damage enemies. That's why I think it's more important to focus around summoning and throwing items and cubes, rather than trying fancy things like reflecting projectiles and trapping enemies.

Soulliard, I did think of one change that could make the original design work better: have the A attacks all summon and then throw a blue cube if Lyle isn't holding anything. I'm sort of wary about the delay it might take for the player to be forced to summon and then throw everything just to deal damage. It's currently a two-step process, which I think would take too long.

The normal S button would only summon special cubes, including the yellow, red, green, and maybe very rarely the Giant Orange. I liked Gainsworthy's suggestion of green cubes disappearing when a certain number are on screen and you summon another one.

[shig]

The problem is that if all his A moves are essentially the same thing, Lyle is going to be the less fun character ever. Imagine if all of Quote's A moves were him shooting with the Polar Star except in different directions. I would never play as him.

He uses the objects around him to damage enemies. That's why I think it's more important to focus around summoning and throwing items and cubes, rather than trying fancy things

The only two moves that don't directly use cubes in my movelist have an alternate use for launching cubes farther or in different angles/ways. If he ends up being too good at close range combat, we just tweak his moves to fix it.
Most of the time, he is going to use his A moves to throw or kick/punch a previously summoned cube.

like reflecting projectiles and trapping enemies.

 Blocking/reflecting projectiles was added because there was an enemy that could do that in the game, and he did look like a bizarro version of Lyle. I just thought we could "borrow" that for Lyle. I figured if Nikujin could throw shurikens and spear barrages, then Lyle could do one of his enemies's attack.
The cartoonish nature of that attack would fit for Lyle imo. Plus, that move would be mostly used for launching cubes.

I'll admit that I just want to add trapping people because it's so cool. And it kind of sounds plausible, too.

We have to find more things to add to his movelist. Give him some variety, y'know. I tried adding different summoning times and different ways to launch the cube without throwing it, but it just didn't seem enough.

[Soulliard]

We already have two characters from the Chzo games, though I grant that one of them has a game his own.

They're both from the same series, but they are each in separate games. It's a bit of a gray area, and it's recently been discussed, but in the end, we decided that Cabadath should be placed on the roster (though he's a fairly low priority).

The thing is, I can't just add every character that's suggested. Adding a character takes a lot of work. It needs to be programmed (which is not terribly difficult, but it takes some time to understand the engine, especially if you've never programmed before), animated (with about a dozen separate animations) and integrated and balanced (which sometimes takes longer than anything else). Unless you can do all of these things at the same level of quality as the rest of the game, then adding another character creates a lot of work for everyone else. And at the moment, our efforts should be on characters that are much, much higher priority than Asha (like Gish).

If you hold an item, most times the shadow cube, A gets new functions, like this:

When he's carrying an item, his A attacks should be the same throws every other character has. It's a part of the engine, and if that is changed, there will be some situations where another character could make better use of an item than Lyle, which just isn't right.

Maybe if you use the Av standing on the ground Lyle will release the cube so that others can pick it up.

Throwing an item into the ground can be useful for items that release something when they hit the ground, like yellow cubes or Naija's seeds.

S can hold other attacks, like the big orange cube and such. I would like an attack moving in a sinus curve, since the sinus curve is a really common behaviour for stuff in the game. Maybe some attack could spawn an enemy from the game? Or S can be assigned to creating other cubes, like green or red cubes.

Spawning enemies doesn't really seem to fit the hero of the game.

What if you don't HAVE to reimagine Lyle? Give him some summoning time, and he can throw cubes like any other character would regularly throw an item.

Then he ends up being just like Naija or Liero, only with fewer options. There needs to be something that sets him apart from every other item-summoning character.

I can see where you are coming from, but if we do it that way, for me it just wouldn't feel quite like lyle without you having to summon the cubes yourself. 
I think the players would understand right after they've seen it once.

It's important for controls to be similar for each character. Otherwise, you're unfairly toying with player expectations. That's fine for a game like I Wanna Be the Guy or La Mulana, but Indie Brawl should be approachable for all types of gamers.

This means that, generally, vA, ^A and >A are attacks aimed downwards, upwards and to the side, respectively, S is a projectile, vS is a defensive move, and ^S is a recovery. There's no logic to mapping Lyle's recovery to vA, especially since that's not the button combination used to double jump in LiCS.

Of course it does. It works well with his fighting style EXACTLY because he has to keep distance most of the time.
It's a high-risk attack wich involves getting you into your most vulnerable position.

That's not how people generally play ranged characters (who are used because they are low-risk). For example, in an earlier build, Quote's blade was overpowered. It was a stronger attack than any of Naija's close-ranged moves. However, the only time it was used was when Quote's player wanted his opponent to get away so he could go back to using his ranged attacks. Players who use ranged characters will always try to stay at a range, where they have the greatest advantage, and the only time they will use short-ranged moves is if the other player gets too close, and they want to push him away. Risky moves are best left to melee characters.

And also, after it connects, it'd be very rewarding. Since you could kick them away afterwards and prevent them from recovering by throwing cubes or you could just hit them with your strongest attacks, the red cube and/or the HUGE cube.

Stunning attacks only work if they're easier to land then the stronger attack. For example, Trilby's taser is faster than his other attacks, and has roughly the same reach. If it's more difficult to land the stunning attack, it would be better to just use the stronger attack in the first place.

Also, getting hit with another attack resets the stun counter to prevent broken combos.

Soulliard, I did think of one change that could make the original design work better: have the A attacks all summon and then throw a blue cube if Lyle isn't holding anything. I'm sort of wary about the delay it might take for the player to be forced to summon and then throw everything just to deal damage. It's currently a two-step process, which I think would take too long.

If Lyle isn't equipped with anything, he throws a shadow cube instead, with no summoning time. It's a one-step process.

The problem is that if all his A moves are essentially the same thing, Lyle is going to be the less fun character ever. Imagine if all of Quote's A moves were him shooting with the Polar Star except in different directions. I would never play as him.

That's the way it works with Naija, and, to a lesser extent, the Golden Knight (who is the most popular character among those I've showed the game to). It doesn't make the character boring, because each attack still has its own niche. It's just based around positioning rather than other factors (and movement and positioning is a large part of what makes the game fun).

The only two moves that don't directly use cubes in my movelist have an alternate use for launching cubes farther or in different angles/ways. If he ends up being too good at close range combat, we just tweak his moves to fix it.

Punching or kicking a cube straight forwards is more redundant with a forward throw than either an upwards throw or a downwards throw.

I just thought we could "borrow" that for Lyle. I figured if Nikujin could throw shurikens and spear barrages, then Lyle could do one of his enemies's attack.

It makes more sense for Nikujin to borrow moves from his enemies because he looks exactly like them, except for his mask color.

We have to find more things to add to his movelist. Give him some variety, y'know. I tried adding different summoning times and different ways to launch the cube without throwing it, but it just didn't seem enough.

He doesn't need tons of variety to be a fun character. GK's moves are all essentially melee attacks, but he's a very fun character to use.

[shig]

There needs to be something that sets him apart from every other item-summoning character.

The fact that he relies almost entirely in throwing items and the fact that he can summon more than just one kind of item already sets him apart, no?

That's not how people generally play ranged characters (who are used because they are low-risk)

We already have Quote, Liero and -possibly to a lesser extent - Iji following a more generic ranged character niche. My vision of Lyle is a lot different than just a ranged character. He'd have to spend time summoning stuff, giving a fair warning to opponents and showing exactly what's the next kind of projectile that he's got ready but would have more mobility/adaptability afterwards because the item can be aimed in many directions.

Players who use ranged characters will always try to stay at a range, where they have the greatest advantage, and the only time they will use short-ranged moves is if the other player gets too close, and they want to push him away.

Not when you have a huge opportunity in front of you, like a big delay after a missed attack or a stun or something.
Plus since I thought Lyle should spend some time summoning before he had a decent attack ready sometimes he wouldn't have enough time to summon THEN throw even if his opponent wasn't really that close.

Risky moves are best left to melee characters.

Not necessarily. The charged Spur is a risky opportunity move in it's own way. I myself always try to get a little closer before firing it to decrease my chances of missing and having to start charging all over again.

Anyways, I think we are allowed to mess a little bit with the ranged character formula. I mean, if you want to make Lyle play similarly to Quote and Liero then there is something wrong here. He isn't some ordinary ranged character. He is a little bit different from a guy with a gun or something like that.

Stunning attacks only work if they're easier to land then the stronger attack.

Wich is exactly what I was suggesting. Maybe I wasn'tvery specific, but I thought the huge cube would be a very slow but very powerful attack, while the trapping cube wouldn't be as slow.

If it's more difficult to land the stunning attack, it would be better to just use the stronger attack in the first place.

Not necessarily either. Maybe the stunning attack could add some damage, or it could be a "safer" move that doesn't let you as open to counters afterwards as the stronger move. In Super Smash Melee and Brawl, I find DK's giant punch easier to land than his headbutt. But sometimes using the punch is too risky because you'd have to charge it again.

Also, getting hit with another attack resets the stun counter to prevent broken combos.

I don't think I understand what you said or why, but I don't want Lyle to be be able to hit the trapping move infinitely on his opponent or do some kind of endless combo, if that's what you are saying.

If Lyle isn't equipped with anything, he throws a shadow cube instead, with no summoning time. It's a one-step process.

This. This right here is my problem with your move list. It's not a one-step process for me. in the original game you had to summon or pick up cubes before throwing them. Not just keep pressing that button and Lyle will throw a barrage of shadow cubes.
That is something I find to be part of the essence of LiCS's gameplay. Specially when you have to keep dodging to buy time to finish your summoning.

That's the way it works with Naija

Did I ever mention that I don't really like Naija's moveset that much? I think I did, but if I did not, then there it is. She is the least fun character in the game for me and the repetitiveness of her moves kinda gets boring for me. I think she could have only ONE command for her beast charge and you should aim it while she is still transforming. I'm pretty sure I've made this suggenstion before already.

and, to a lesser extent, the Golden Knight (who is the most popular character among those I've showed the game to)

"To a lesser extent". His moveset is a lot less repetitive than Naija.

It doesn't make the character boring, because each attack still has its own niche.

Right for GK. not so much with Naija.

Punching or kicking a cube straight forwards is more redundant with a forward throw than either an upwards throw or a downwards throw.

Not if doing so has a different effect. Punching would send it farther, faster and do more damage. But would take more time to prepare since you'd have to summon the cube with the >S -because if you summon with S, you'd end up holding it- to make it appear on the ground in front of you and THEN punch.

Kicking would send it sliding through the ground. Would be very useful for when there are plenty of green cubes on the stage because it would be faster than picking up and throwing(I imagine the kick would reach farther than he could grab things).

He doesn't need tons of variety to be a fun character.

But he needs a decent ammount of it. I think right now he sounds a little too repetitive.

GK's moves are all essentially melee attacks.

Just like Liero has a lot of variety and all his moves are all essentially ranged attacks.
"Melee attacks" is pretty vague.

[null & void]

Soulliard, I can (and will) do everything on that list except possibly the animations -- and I'm going to try those anyway.

When I say rabid fangirl, I mean RABID fangirl.

Also, I've been told in my work on mods for various commercial games that I am amazing with game-balance -- it just comes naturally.

I understand that Asha is low priority, but he's the only "possible" character that interests me. Put another way, Asha's the only character that I care enough to work on.

It may be helpful to keep in mind that Iji was the second indie game I have ever played, the first was Spelunky, and I never played anything but commercial games until after I joined the forum and had been a member for several days.

[Valter]

How about we make Lyle able to throw people? A grab-throw move would suit him well, I think, since throwing isn't allowed for most other characters, right?

Also, one thing that differentiates Lyle from other characters is that his items are less temporary. Especially if green cubes end up being implemented, most of Lyle's attacks will have more drawn out consequences than, say, Quote's gun. Also, most of his attacks are thrown items, which mean they react to gravity. Quotes attacks all go in a single direction only. If Quote shoots up, the bullet goes only up. A thrown cube, on the other hand, would come up and then back down. That does change the dynamic somewhat.

Besides, it makes sense to include a number of ranged characters. Having only Quote and Liero (and to a lesser extent, Naija, if I'm not mistaken) as the ranged people might throw off the balance. To me, an "ideal" character line-up for Indie Brawl would include 4 melee characters, 4 ranged characters, and 4 "middie" (both short and long range) characters. That way, if you're playing with four friends, you can follow a single dynamic (close range, long range, or middie), and have each person choose a separate character. I think it would be more fun that way, but it might also help us with testing the balancing.

[null & void]

I decided to alter Asha's movelist because of the "blink stab". EDIT: Altered again, the electro-choke would require extra animations for every character, which has been established as a no-no.

A:  The basic laser dagger slash. Low damage, lots of knockback.

A^: The upward laser dagger slash. Higher damage, somewhat smaller knockback.

A>: Blink-stab. Teleports to the side and shanks the first person in the way. Respectable damage, stuns.

Av: Blinks into the air above the nearest enemy, drops down dagger first. No knockback, high damage.

--

S: The "circle" teleport that assassins so love, press again when at a favorable position to manifest. No warmup, no cooldown. Every time a flash appears in a wall, Asha takes damage. Asha can still be attacked (though the timing would need to be impeccable) while teleporting.

S^: Leaps up to throw 3 of those red sickles, making it a recovery move and an attack. The sickles would travel down in a cone at roughly a 45 degree angle, have a very small splash damage range and have no knockback with a decent little bit of damage. EDIT: Would allow for "triple jumps". Should I pare this down a bit?

S>: The triple plasma cannon blast. I expect this would have pretty decent cooldown, where most of the rest would be very fast. Damage, knockback both at "ouch" (but not "hax" or even "high", just enough to say, "wow that smarted") levels. Medium warm-up.

Sv: The ground slam from the second battle, huge knockback, pretty decent damage, huge cooldown (even more than the plasma cannon). Long aerial warmup.

I'm also wondering about sound, the characters will need their own sound effects, right? I think that the most memorable part of Asha was his calling out "JUST DIE!" (I still hear it every time I listen to Iji's boss music...) before doing either of his super attacks in the second battle. If I can get permission from Daniel, can I add in those sound effects?

[Soulliard]

We already have Quote, Liero and -possibly to a lesser extent - Iji following a more generic ranged character niche.

First of all, Quote, Liero and Iji all play very differently. Liero is much less mobile than Quote, and can't take as many hits. Playing Liero is like controlling artillery- you sit in one place and rain attacks on your opponents. Quote has a lot of mobility and can afford to mix in some melee attacks on occasion. Iji has better ranged attacks than most, but isn't really a ranged character.

More importantly, you're missing my point. By definition, ranged characters are better than other characters at a range, but weaker up close. This means that a wise player will never want to close to melee range. A ranged attacker's melee attacks should be quick and should push the enemy back if they are to ever see use. Otherwise, they are unlikely to see much use.

Not when you have a huge opportunity in front of you, like a big delay after a missed attack or a stun or something.

Why would you try to stun an enemy that's already stunned, though?

Also, getting hit with another attack resets the stun counter to prevent broken combos.

I don't think I understand what you said or why, but I don't want Lyle to be be able to hit the trapping move infinitely on his opponent or do some kind of endless combo, if that's what you are saying.

If an enemy is stunned for a long time by an attack (say, Trilby's taser), and is then hit by an attack with a short stun time (say, Trilby's flit), he will only be stunned for a short time. So, your stun->kick combo with no hope of recovery wouldn't work.

It's not a one-step process for me. in the original game you had to summon or pick up cubes before throwing them. Not just keep pressing that button and Lyle will throw a barrage of shadow cubes.

But if he has to take time to summon a cube before he attacks, then he will be really slow (and weak) compared to other characters.

Besides, I still kept cube summoning in my move list, so you'll want to summon a cube whenever you get a chance. Shadow cubes ensure that he isn't helpless without a better cube, though.

Did I ever mention that I don't really like Naija's moveset that much? I think I did, but if I did not, then there it is. She is the least fun character in the game for me and the repetitiveness of her moves kinda gets boring for me. I think she could have only ONE command for her beast charge and you should aim it while she is still transforming. I'm pretty sure I've made this suggenstion before already.

Hmm... I quite like her movelist. She's actually one of my favorite characters. I am considering replacing her upwards beast charge, possibly with something inspired by Sun Form or Dual Form. Besides Beast Charge, though, what don't you like about the her?

GK's moveset is a lot less repetitive than Naija.

They're actually pretty similar.
Beast Charges ~ Kick, Uppercut, Stick Slam
Flipper Kick ~ Double Punch
Energy Spikes ~ Stick Throw
Shield Song ~ Bonesaw Absorb
Whirlpool ~ Stick Spin

Not if doing so has a different effect. Punching would do more damage.

How would that work for other types of items, like Goo Balls and Electro Mines?

[Soulliard]

Soulliard, I can (and will) do everything on that list except possibly the animations -- and I'm going to try those anyway.

I'll send you the engine, and you can do with it what you want. I can't promise Asha will make it into the game, though, unless you do nearly all the work on your own, and you do a very good job.

If you really want to help with this project, I'd work on a character that's already on the list.

I'm also wondering about sound, the characters will need their own sound effects, right? I think that the most memorable part of Asha was his calling out "JUST DIE!" (I still hear it every time I listen to Iji's boss music...) before doing either of his super attacks in the second battle. If I can get permission from Daniel, can I add in those sound effects?

That's the route we're trying to take for sound effects. I haven't added the sound engine yet, though.