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[bento_smile]

I love how so many people have trouble getting the number of V's right. I've remembered the count ever since I visited the game's website.

I remember because I think of them as spikes.

SPIKES
VVVVVV

[DavidCaruso]

It should have been VVVVVVVV so their slogan is "coulda had a V8."

[Samtagonist]

WWW is innovative because it took a mechanic from a single Megaman level and expanded it into an entire game.

Wait.

No.

It's innovative because you died if you touched the word HATE.  But you also died if you touched the word LOVE.

No, wait, actually, it's more like the New Coke.  It'll be around forever.  Heheheh.  

[eigenbom]

Great to see some indie game devs in that list. Well done TC.

[Chef Boyardee]

I don't understand how people can complain about innovation while completely ignoring the craftsmanship of design. Was Dark Souls good because it did new things or because it put together old things very well?

Why do you even care about innovation?

Okay, maybe a better question would be "how do you even qualify innovation?" Like, what is innovative? Fine tuning systems? How much do you have to manipulate numbers before it's innovative?

I mean I'm not playing the devil's advocate or anything but what are you even looking for?

[cactus]

The experimental part in VVVVVV is the level design. The game utilizes the gravity flipping in a number of different ways and keep changing (or at least modifying) how you play as you progress. If the levels all contained the same kind of traps and mechanics as the first part or so, then the game should hardly be called experimental, but playing through the whole game anyone should be able to tell that Terry has experimented and explored tons of ideas to keep the main mechanic interesting through out the whole game.

If you for instance compare VVVVVV to Donkey Kong Country, you'll see that DKC resorted to introducing new player mechanics constantly to keep the game interesting. As far as I remember Terry kept the game interesting without ever really altering how you control your player character, which is a big accomplishment imo.

[J. R. Hill]

Good points. 

[Gimym TILBERT]

I don't understand how people can complain about innovation while completely ignoring the craftsmanship of design. Was Dark Souls good because it did new things or because it put together old things very well?

Why do you even care about innovation?

Okay, maybe a better question would be "how do you even qualify innovation?" Like, what is innovative? Fine tuning systems? How much do you have to manipulate numbers before it's innovative?

I mean I'm not playing the devil's advocate or anything but what are you even looking for?

Innovative is not tweaking, it's when you introduce new concepts. I would hardly call VVVVVV experimental or innovative but I haven't play it yet so I will refrain to say sometjing.

Experimenting and being experimental would be two different thing too IMO. One is the process of building and tweaking, the other is the process of expending on tradition.

[Geeze]

I don't understand how people can complain about innovation while completely ignoring the craftsmanship of design. Was Dark Souls good because it did new things or because it put together old things very well?

Why do you even care about innovation?

Okay, maybe a better question would be "how do you even qualify innovation?" Like, what is innovative? Fine tuning systems? How much do you have to manipulate numbers before it's innovative?

I mean I'm not playing the devil's advocate or anything but what are you even looking for?

Because it is not the topic discussed.

#42 rule for people w/o TIGS street cred:
Silence when angry gents (with or without tophats and/or monocles) are arguing is art games and are games art.

[Manuel Magalhães]

This is kinda a misnomer, everyone here agrees that games are art. The discussion around "games as art" is about if we need more games about the human condition with Mozart's Requiem playing on the background to push the medium forward, or if we just need to continue making games in the way they were intended to be (e.g. fun).

[Gimym TILBERT]

I think a lot of people confuse a lot of thing about experimental and craftmanship, they are not mutually exclusive, but they aren't exactly the same topic at all. They are orthogonal.

I'm sure craftmanship is way more discussed that " DURR art games" (almost any post in design subforum) but craftmanship is always bring up when we discuss innovation and so called "art" to silence and look down on these problem.

I mean look at most topic about a single game about how many post is just about craft, the skyward sword thread for exemple, and totally free from "hurrr art, durr inovation" like they want you to believe.


@Manual

Not exactly, it is generally about where are the next step of design and if current experimentation outside of tradition are worth it, and if they are, how.

Some people believe the next step is refinement and tweaking of existing design, other believe is about expending topics, some other thinks it is about expending the language itlself other think it is about eschewing tradition and thought altogether and do what you want in order to free games from constrain.

All of them are right.

The discussion generally is about who hate a certain perspective and other defending it and the result is not agreement but strengthening and clarification of each other point. Which bring further clarity in the motive behind concept and dev make each party stronger at his own stuff.

[moi]

3 pages to art and games

[Alex May]

You know what just because someone says something is something, doesn't make it so. Trying to fit the word "experimental" with VVVVVV may be a decent exercise in game analysis but IMO VVVVVV isn't an experimental game. However, Terry definitely does make experimental games, and the game of his that people are most likely to be familiar with is VVVVVV.

There probably wasn't enough room in the bio to write "Terry makes experimental games like At A Distance and excellent retro-inspired platformers like VVVVVV" and also what person reading that list actually know what "platformer" means you feel me? Chrome spellcheck doesn't even fucking know. It's not a word.

[Chef Boyardee]

Because it is not the topic discussed.

Yes it is. What are you talking about? Why are you talking about art? Design is a skill and something that's skillfully designed is better than something that isn't. A lot of platformers attempt the exact same thing. What makes some better than others is the skill of the design. VVVVVV is a well designed game. Uhhh. Buhh. Uhhh. Guhh. Art. Uhhh.

#42 rule for people w/o TIGS street cred:
Silence when angry gents (with or without tophats and/or monocles) are arguing is art games and are games art.

Ahhh. Hmmm. Ah. Ahhh. Hmm. Yes. Ahhh. Yes. Ahhh. Great. Yes. Ahh. Hmmm. Ahhhhhh. Yes. Eat my shit. Hmm.

[Dragonmaw]

#42 rule for people w/o TIGS street cred:
Silence when angry gents (with or without tophats and/or monocles) are arguing is art games and are games art.

Did you just say Chef Boyardee doesn't have street cred?

Get the fuck out.

Edit: No seriously what the fuck