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May 21, 2013, 01:13:15 PM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralRon paul
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dustin
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« Reply #405 on: February 09, 2012, 11:57:52 AM »

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For the sake of this argument, let's say I don't care about the life quality and the happiness of the country's citizens

I'm so confused, in this hypothetical what do you care about?  Isn't quality of life the only thing that could possibly matter and all the argument is just about who's quality of life?


I also just want to point out that I would be getting a Phd in computer Science and working in the field regardless of the pay level.  I just enjoy it.  I would hazzard a guess and say that I would be more likely to do it in a more liberal society as I wouldn't have to pay so much for school (undergrad not grad school) and then just hope I get a job afterwards.  So I don't really buy your claim that people wouldn't do certain jobs if the pay scale was more flat.

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It's 15 place in the world HIGHER THAN GERMANY which has LOWER POPULATION and is SOCIAL LIBERAL.

Yes some European countries makes less money then us, uses far fewer resources then us, and yet somehow has happier citizens then us.  This seems like something they are doing right, not wrong.
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PompiPompi
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« Reply #406 on: February 09, 2012, 12:02:44 PM »

Quote
For the sake of this argument, let's say I don't care about the life quality and the happiness of the country's citizens

I'm so confused, in this hypothetical what do you care about?  Isn't quality of life the only thing that could possibly matter and all the argument is just about who's quality of life?


I also just want to point out that I would be getting a Phd in computer Science and working in the field regardless of the pay level.  I just enjoy it.  I would hazzard a guess and say that I would be more likely to do it in a more liberal society as I wouldn't have to pay so much for school (undergrad not grad school) and then just hope I get a job afterwards.  So I don't really buy your claim that people wouldn't do certain jobs if the pay scale was more flat.

Quote
It's 15 place in the world HIGHER THAN GERMANY which has LOWER POPULATION and is SOCIAL LIBERAL.

Yes Germany makes less money then us, uses far fewer resources then us, and yet somehow has happier citizens then us.  This seems like something they are doing right, not wrong.
from here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index
Germany ~50 US~100
Happiness is irrelevant, because we are talking about economy, not pshycology. Please don't let the argument drift to happiness, because I thought we were talking about what makes a stronger\more competitive economy. Not what makes people happy, which can also be from simple things like... longer summers, beautiful landscape, lack of wars, or really good cartoon shows.
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Falmil
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« Reply #407 on: February 09, 2012, 12:16:27 PM »

I don't see why quality of life would be out. Happiness is obviously a subjective term, but quality of life is pretty much everything for a population.
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PompiPompi
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« Reply #408 on: February 09, 2012, 12:19:31 PM »

I don't see why quality of life would be out. Happiness is obviously a subjective term, but quality of life is pretty much everything for a population.
Because we are not discussing quality of life? I can add "The countries that reached the moon metric" as something I would use in my arguments.
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #409 on: February 09, 2012, 12:25:23 PM »

For the sake of this argument, let's say I don't care about the life quality and the happiness of the country's citizens. That doesn't mean I approve China sort of conditions, but just the bare minimum of surviving.
So all your arguments about how everyone are high happy in Norway is irrelevant.

Not really sure what this means. Also, you slander weed smoking like it's a bad thing. Marijuana is great. Better than booze or tobacco.

(Also, doesn't North european countries have some issues with depression and high suicide rates?)

Suicide rates vary wildly. For example, South Korea, with one of the higher HDI ratings, has a very high suicide rate. Conversely, Peru, which has a very low HDI rating, has one of the lowest. As for the Scandanavian states, they have roughly middle-of-the-road suicide rates.


In a social-liberal economies educated people earn more, but by how much? I heard from someone who lives in one of these countries that he complains about the taxes. Still, I would think that in the US the compensation for having more experience\education increase in a higher rate(let's say exponentially) eventhough the average or median is lower.

I don't think you understand what GDP per capita is. It is the measure of a country's gross domestic product (what is made in the country, then sold within or exported to other countries), divided by the number of inhabitants (the "capita" part). Norway, Denmark, and Sweden all have higher GDP per capita than the US, which means that the average citizen contributes more to the country's wealth in Sweden than they do in the USA.

Going by income equality, the Nordic states have roughly a 1:20 equality (worker:CEO), which means that the average CEO only earns 20x more than the average worker. Comparatively, the US has an income quality rate more on the order of 1:400. And it is worth mentioning that, in an economic system like our's, your income is less determined by actual ability or skill and more determined by the class you were born into and who you know. Most rich people are not that smart or much more skilled than the average worker. I have more esteem for a carpenter than the CEO of a venture capital firm.

So on the lower end it's worse for the US, but on the higher end it's better for the US.

You mean that poor people live in the mud and oligarchs own 12 mansions.

I fail to see how this is good for a country.

I think you are downplaying on how much uniform compensation people get for having more experience\education.

Given the educational bubble burst in the USA, this lead is evaporating in the US.

And finally, you didn't prove that this kind of social-liberal economy scales up. Germany has about $40k GDP per Capita, Norway has twice of that.
Germany's population is bigger than Norway, Germany has a stronger economy than Norway. Yet Germany's GDP per Capita is half that of Norway.
Here, now I am showing you numbers and rationalize that this kind of social liberal economy don't scale up. I will even get a step further and "proove" that there is a negative correlation between the population and the GDP per capita.
Even more so, the US GDP per capita is not so bad. It's 15 place in the world HIGHER THAN GERMANY which has LOWER POPULATION and is SOCIAL LIBERAL.
Now the numbers don't add up, do they?

How are you judging "stronger economy"? By most measures of economic strength (frequency of recession, GDP, import/export markets) the Nordic states have a much stronger economic system than say, the US.

Also you are sort of ignoring the fact that Germany has had to rebuild after almost a full century of war and oppression and destruction. The German Unification, WWI, WWII, and the Cold War have left a large, indelible mark on Germany's society and economy. Given the fact that it's basically been in a period of rebuilding since before you were born, I think Germany's doing alright.

Why am I making this post...
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dustin
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« Reply #410 on: February 09, 2012, 12:33:27 PM »

I don't see why quality of life would be out. Happiness is obviously a subjective term, but quality of life is pretty much everything for a population.
Because we are not discussing quality of life? I can add "The countries that reached the moon metric" as something I would use in my arguments.

Yeah sorry I should have called it quality of life not happiness in my post.

@PompiPompi if it is not obvious to you why quality of life is more relevant to this discussion then reaching the moon I don't know that anyone can explain it to you on the internet.  Hopefully you're just being argumentative but if you really can't see the difference I guess you just have some growing up to do.
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« Reply #411 on: February 09, 2012, 12:42:04 PM »

My point was, all those metrics you bring as proofs are "fallacies". You compare Norway, a 5 million people country, to the US and say it's GDP per capita is better. Then when I bring germany as another larger scale social-liberal economy you say, oh they didn't rebuild enough.
Also, I find the GDP per Capita measurment flawed from the simple fact that GDP per Cita is not linear. The people who bring the majority of the GDP are a very small part of the population. How much GDP was made by facebook? How much was invested? It's usually a few hits that compensate a lot of misses.
So Norway might have less misses, but the US have better Hits.

I think I was mainly annoyed because you almost convinced me with your "charts and statistics", and I think you are just using some arbitrary metric to prove something. And what annoys the most is that you say it with such confidence that it makes people believe like you know what you are talking about. And you don't necesseraly know.
I mean, there is an agreement that these things are very hard to compare, but you somehow proved that social-liberal is superior to capitalism economically.
So I used your own weapon by using random arbitrary data to disproove you. So then you use counter arguments and it never ends.
If you are going to use a metric to prove something, then DEFINE PROPERLY THE METRIC, and then ONLY THE METRIC COUNTS.
If you are going to use counter arguments where your metric fail, then you are just babbeling.
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #412 on: February 09, 2012, 12:44:09 PM »

What the fuck are you talking about?
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PompiPompi
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« Reply #413 on: February 09, 2012, 12:45:23 PM »

I don't see why quality of life would be out. Happiness is obviously a subjective term, but quality of life is pretty much everything for a population.
Because we are not discussing quality of life? I can add "The countries that reached the moon metric" as something I would use in my arguments.

Yeah sorry I should have called it quality of life not happiness in my post.

@PompiPompi if it is not obvious to you why quality of life is more relevant to this discussion then reaching the moon I don't know that anyone can explain it to you on the internet.  Hopefully you're just being argumentative but if you really can't see the difference I guess you just have some growing up to do.
Of course quality of life is important, but that is not what we are arguing. We are trying to build logical arguments. I am just arguing against what was claimed, that a social-liberal economy is more competitive and superior method to capitalsim, in relation to economy.
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« Reply #414 on: February 09, 2012, 12:47:20 PM »

What the fuck are you talking about?

I thought GDP per Capita, is somehow exports compared to how much money was invested to produce these exports, not simpley dividing by the population. If that is what GDP per Capita means(divided by population) it is even a more useless metric.
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« Reply #415 on: February 09, 2012, 12:47:39 PM »

does anyone even know what pompi is going on about
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dustin
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« Reply #416 on: February 09, 2012, 12:49:22 PM »

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Also, I find the GDP per Capita measurment flawed from the simple fact that GDP per Cita is not linear. The people who bring the majority of the GDP are a very small part of the population. How much GDP was made by facebook? How much was invested? It's usually a few hits that compensate a lot of misses.
So Norway might have less misses, but the US have better Hits.

Um... as far as I can tell GDP per Capita is pretty darn fair.  For example your saying the US economy is more like this...

19 people contribute 1 GDP (most people bring in a small part of GDP)
1 person conributes 101 GDP (a couple people bring in most of the GDP)
total GDP is 120 GDP per capita is 120/20 = 6

while Norway is more like this...

20 people bring in 7 GDP
total GDP is 140 GDP per capita is 7

It doesn't matter if one person brings in all the GDP or not, the average is a mean and not a mode or median or something like that.  The U.S. isn't unfairly disadvantaged by a mean GDP measurement because it has more variance then Norway.

In other words

What the fuck are you talking about?
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #417 on: February 09, 2012, 12:51:08 PM »

I think he's trying to say that it's great that the USA has one of the worst income qualities in the world and that basic human freedoms should be curtailed so that rich people can get richer.
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PompiPompi
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« Reply #418 on: February 09, 2012, 12:54:12 PM »

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Also, I find the GDP per Capita measurment flawed from the simple fact that GDP per Cita is not linear. The people who bring the majority of the GDP are a very small part of the population. How much GDP was made by facebook? How much was invested? It's usually a few hits that compensate a lot of misses.
So Norway might have less misses, but the US have better Hits.

Um... as far as I can tell GDP per Capita is pretty darn fair.  For example your saying the US economy is more like this...

19 people contribute 1 GDP (most people bring in a small part of GDP)
1 person conributes 101 GDP (a couple people bring in most of the GDP)
total GDP is 120 GDP per capita is 120/20 = 6

while Norway is more like this...

20 people bring in 7 GDP
total GDP is 140 GDP per capita is 7

It doesn't matter if one person brings in all the GDP or not, the average is a mean and not a mode or median or something like that.  The U.S. isn't unfairly disadvantaged by a mean GDP measurement because it has more variance then Norway.

In other words

What the fuck are you talking about?
I can also do math:
99 people bring 1 GDP
1 person bring 99 GDP
Total GDP is 100. GDP per Capita is 1.
10 people(Remember the US has larger population?) bring 2 GDP
Total GDP is 20. GDP per Capita is 2.
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #419 on: February 09, 2012, 12:59:13 PM »

Except that the US measures its productivity and wealth via GDP internally so...
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My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.

-Snoop Dogg
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