Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1056248 Posts in 42892 Topics- by 34842 Members - Latest Member: smoofano

October 22, 2014, 07:47:33 PM
TIGSource ForumsDeveloperCreativeDesignLet's talk about Quick Time Events
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
Print
Author Topic: Let's talk about Quick Time Events  (Read 4101 times)
EdgeOfProphecy
Level 2
**



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2012, 06:21:07 PM »

Quote
Selecting which narrative track to follow isn't what I mean by meaningful.
and how am i supposed to know that? it's a "meaningful choice" in the context of the game it exists in. it's not an interesting choice from a mechanical standpoint ofc.
One, from the context that I was talking about it as a dexterity challenge and not a ~narrative fork~, and two, because this is the design forum, and the assumption should be that we are talking about game design, not narrative.

Well, I do think narrative intersects with design, particularly when you're attempting to meld mechanics and story-telling together.  The time travel aspect of Chrono Trigger was inseparable from how the narrative unfolded.

yeah heavy rain is bad. it's bad as a choose your own adventure novel (shouldnt that be movie?)

Quote
Selecting which narrative track to follow isn't what I mean by meaningful.
and how am i supposed to know that? it's a "meaningful choice" in the context of the game it exists in. it's not an interesting choice from a mechanical standpoint ofc.


I think QTE's fail the "interesting mechanic" sniff test real hard.

A good execution challenge requires a few things.

1)  That it provides the player with interesting choices.  The mechanic should have a context that fits within the overall system of the game.  For instance, last hitting in a MOBA makes sense as an execution challenge because it ties into the economy of the game and opens up strategic opportunities for the players (Using a skill to last puts that skill on cooldown and might consume a resource, last hitting with an attack forces you to stand still and leaves you open to retaliation, etc).

2)  That it be consensual.  A good execution challenge is going to demand concentration and focus from its player, and it is very jarring when the game sneaks up behind you and suddenly demands you press some random buttons.  It would be like replacing the Olympic games with a squad of cameramen that go around randomly waylaying world class athletes in their daily lives and demanding they do their routine on the spot, right there.  Sitting at the coffee shop having a latte and suddenly, "HOLY CRAP YOU'RE ON CAMERA CLEAN AND JERK THIS 350 POUND BARBELL RIGHT NOW DO IT DO IT DO IT".  It would not beget a world class performance.  By denying the player the opportunity to get into the mindset of concentration and performance, and the environment to experiment with different strategies for success, you are doing them a disservice.

I would argue that Shenmue is a good game in spite of its reliance on QTE's.  I don't think they're endemic to the telling of the story, and I think it could have been a more successful franchise had there been more weight behind the mechanics.  Imagine if it didn't have a compelling narrative, it would have been a complete bomb.

The point about RE4 subverting convention in cutscenes is an interesting one, but I'm still rather dubious about their inclusion in the game.  For instance, the portion where you're chased by El Gigante through the canyon is not a QTE.  You have to actually run, shoot locks off of doors, drop the boulder on him, etc.  Had the entire thing been an QTE sequence, I don't think it would have been as engaging.

I think once the initial shock wore off, it returned to business as per usual.  I see a cutscene, I'm on the guard for a QTE to pop up.  I do it, I proceed through the game, I fail it, I have to try again until I succeed.  At that point, they're no longer shocking since the game has established "Cutscenes are not safe."  Afterward, they return the being an annoying and pointless Simon Says game mechanic.  I would rather they have replaced those scenes with something that leverages the game's current mechanics.

Regardless, cutscenes have been successful subverted and we can move out.  We've had our "Ceci n'est pas une custscene" moment and it's passed.  Personally I find giving the player freedom during otherwise scripted sequences/plot dumps is more interesting, and less intrusive into the flow of the game.
Logged
Bandages
Guest
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2012, 07:02:33 PM »

I think they're fun

 Embarrassed


I must be too simple to understand complicated things like "meaningful choice"
Logged
ஒழுக்கின்மை
Level 10
*****


Also known as रिंकू.

RinkuHero
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2012, 07:08:59 PM »

i liked the QTE (if you can call them that) in ff7, if you can call them that. the little ones where you had to give cpr to a person by pressing buttons in a particular rhythm, or had to do squats by pressing buttons in a sequence. if you've played the game you know the ones i mean. they probably aren't really quick time events, but i'm not sure what they're called (story-focused mini-games?)
Logged

EdgeOfProphecy
Level 2
**



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2012, 07:39:51 PM »

I think they're fun

 Embarrassed


I must be too simple to understand complicated things like "meaningful choice"

Nah, it's just people's opinions. 

i liked the QTE (if you can call them that) in ff7, if you can call them that. the little ones where you had to give cpr to a person by pressing buttons in a particular rhythm, or had to do squats by pressing buttons in a sequence. if you've played the game you know the ones i mean. they probably aren't really quick time events, but i'm not sure what they're called (story-focused mini-games?)

It's actually a bit hard to sit down and formally define what is and isn't a QTE, but yeah I'd consider those mini-games instead.  Mini-games are different.
Logged
ஒழுக்கின்மை
Level 10
*****


Also known as रिंकू.

RinkuHero
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2012, 07:49:38 PM »

yeah they're closer to mini-games, but they differ in that you only do them *once* and that's it, and that you need to pass them to continue the story. so they aren't mini-games in the sense that the card game in ff8 is a mini-game (since that one is optional and you can play it at any time), instead they are small games inserted in the big one that are mandatory in order to pass through a sequence of the story. so maybe "quick time mini game" or something
Logged

EdgeOfProphecy
Level 2
**



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2012, 08:10:27 PM »

I believe the thing that makes them distinct to me is the lack of the ubiquitous "Simon Says" aspect most QTE's have had.

If I remember the squat game (it has been a long while since I played FF7), you had to press a specific sequence of buttons over and over with timing to do the squats, and the goal was to do as many as possible (with a target of X) in 30 seconds or something.

That's a bit different.  It's more of a skill execution than pressing random buttons, and it is explained to the player before embarking upon it.  If you mess up, there's more room for improvement and you understand why.
Logged
ஒழுக்கின்மை
Level 10
*****


Also known as रिंकू.

RinkuHero
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2012, 08:12:11 PM »

what about the ones in heavy rain? would those be mini-games or quick time events? they seem to be a mix of both too
Logged

EdgeOfProphecy
Level 2
**



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2012, 01:36:44 AM »

I never played Heavy Rain, so I'm not really sure.
Logged
DavidCaruso
YEEEAAAHHHHHH
Level 10
*



View Profile
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2012, 10:53:03 AM »

Truly, Heavy Rain is filled to the brim with meaningful choices.

Anyway, QTEs are dumb and usually a half-assed compromise. Shocking the first time, then just annoying and uninteresting. If you want to put interactivity in certain parts of your game then go all-out and let me properly play it, and if you can't due to limitations regarding camera visibility, model resources, etc. but still think the game would benefit from me seeing it then let me watch or read it. Button press prompts aren't going to make cutscenes much more engaging than they already are, and I'd rather have narrative branches based on things you do outside of them (i.e. choices you make in the context of the main game world.)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 11:05:57 AM by DavidCaruso » Logged

Steel Assault devlog - NES-style 2D action platformer: Twitter | Tumblr
EdgeOfProphecy
Level 2
**



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2012, 11:16:53 AM »

Truly, Heavy Rain is filled to the brim with meaningful choices.

Anyway, QTEs are dumb and usually a half-assed compromise. Shocking the first time, then just annoying and uninteresting. If you want to put interactivity in certain parts of your game then go all-out and let me properly play it, and if you can't due to limitations regarding camera visibility, model resources, etc. but still think the game would benefit from me seeing it then let me watch or read it. Button press prompts aren't going to make cutscenes much more interesting.

Ok.  That's pretty awful.  Would be a better sequence if you could just chase the guy.
Logged
inkBot
Level 2
**


Bumpity


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2012, 12:59:10 PM »

While I think that Heavy Rain could have done well without any QTE's, to its merit the story had me intrigued by the end and I actually didn't expect the killer to be who it turned out to be. But even so, from a "game" perspective, it's pretty shitty. To call it a game would be a stretch imho.

If you ask me Heavy Rains biggest weakness isn't the QTE's though. It's the minutia. You're quite literally forced into doing busy work that's frankly not that interesting, engaging or fun.

As for the "branching" storyline argument. Yes there do exist some branching I guess. I wouldn't know what they are because I only played the game once, but throughout the game I never really knew exactly which actions had impact and which didn't, which doesn't exactly lend well to doing a second playthrough.

My biggest gripe with QTE's, apart from being oversaturated, is that they detract from what's going on. Take God of War (any) as an example. I play the game and suddenly; QTE! I don't really care about what's going on on the screen, I'm only trying to get the buttons right. In the end, all a QTE is, is 1's and 0's, true or false. There's really no skill involved in completing a QTE, hence the satisfaction of doing so is greatly diminished. Back to God of War: "'I just ripped the wings of a griffin!' 'Oh! With like a combo or some magic item?' 'Eh, nah. I just pressed the buttons that came up on the screen...'"
Logged


"If there's two ways to interpret something and one is stupid, pick the other way."
Bandages
Guest
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2012, 01:16:56 PM »

I loved the QTEs in Heavy Rain.

Holy crap were they a lot of fun. It's super visceral and awesome to be pitted into a situation where you know if you mess up, you might die! And having all that input coming at you, needing to stay focused.

It's literally the only game I've ever played where I was hanging off the edge of my seat jacked into the action. QTEs are a lot of fun! When I'm playing a game I'm not in darchy art-critic mode where I feel cheated by a four button system. I'm enjoying the story and gameplay. If the game sucks a fat one, I'll notice, but Heavy Rain didn't.

The fight scenes utilize QTEs really well because if you miss a punch it has a real effect. It's kind of like...

real


life

in the sense that if you mess up there are consequences for failure! But not failure as in Video Game YOU LOSE failure but actual relevant things that are situational.

As for the minutia, yeah the first levels are kind of slow. Walk around.. look at stuff.. shake some orange juice. But.. I wasn't ever upset. I was never thinking "man this FUCKING SUCKS" I was thinking more "ohhh this is tense I wonder when the bad stuff will happen"

tl;dr gaming is primarily about enjoying what you're doing. There's nothing inherently flawed with QTEs and I think they have been used perfectly well in previous games such as HR to have a real sense of consequence, action and tension.
Logged
unsilentwill
Level 9
****


O, the things left unsaid!


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2012, 02:20:24 PM »

I don't see how anything you said has anything to do with QTEs. It's about branching narrative in response to simple actions, control timing, and consequences.

Imagine how much better the game would be if all of those actions were bound to buttons/directions in a character-familiar logical context instead of flashed on the screen like someone yelling "you're doing this now".

The serious inherent flaw in QTEs is that they give you fake freedom instead of real freedom, which is the whole point of a video game. Input based on the player.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 05:50:33 PM by unsilentwill » Logged
C.A. Silbereisen
Schlagerstar
Global Moderator
Level 10
******


eurovision winner 2014


View Profile
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2012, 02:29:47 PM »

heavy rain's greatest weakness is the terrible plot and how seriously it takes itself. for a game that purports to be about "storytelling," shouldn't telling a story that's, y'know, good be a requirement?
Logged

inkBot
Level 2
**


Bumpity


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2012, 02:30:44 PM »

When I said that the game forced you to do things, I meant it. The prologue is a great example. It's established that the guy is alone in his own home in the morning. We have to do his morning routine, pretty much in order. "I can't go downstairs before I put some clothes on." I have to shower before I get dressed." and so on.

Sure, sometimes you have the option to choose between two actions, but the player never really contributed to the proceedings, and that's where I think the game fell flat for me. The player is never really a driving force in the game. You make few, if any, important decisions. You don't move the story, the story drags you along. You could essentially just start up the game, and put the controller down and the game would just keep going.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that a persistent timeline with consequences is the bad thing here, it's just that the player doesn't seem all that important a part of the equation.
Logged


"If there's two ways to interpret something and one is stupid, pick the other way."
inkBot
Level 2
**


Bumpity


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2012, 02:32:41 PM »

The serious inherent flaw in QTEs is that they give you fake freedom instead of real freedom, which is the whole point of a video game. Input based on the player.
My sentiment exactly.
Logged


"If there's two ways to interpret something and one is stupid, pick the other way."
C.A. Silbereisen
Schlagerstar
Global Moderator
Level 10
******


eurovision winner 2014


View Profile
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2012, 02:45:15 PM »

Quote
However, you don't move the story, the story drags you along. You could essentially just start up the game, and put the controller down and the game would just keep going.
That's not just limited to Heavy Rain though. I feel the same way about a lot of other modern action games with more "complex" mechanics and less QTEs (Uncharted for instance). Handholding, excessive checkpoints and all other mechanics aimed at making failure either impossible or insignificant contribute to reducing the player's sense of agency. At least Heavy Rain is "honest" about it rather than trying to trick me into thinking I'm still playing a "real" game.
Logged

inkBot
Level 2
**


Bumpity


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2012, 02:48:18 PM »

Handholding, excessive checkpoints and all other mechanics aimed at making failure either impossible or insignificant contribute to reducing the player's sense of agency.
Logged


"If there's two ways to interpret something and one is stupid, pick the other way."
C.A. Silbereisen
Schlagerstar
Global Moderator
Level 10
******


eurovision winner 2014


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2012, 02:50:14 PM »

exactly the sort of thing im talking about. that game was a snoozefest.
Logged

Tuba
Level 10
*****



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2012, 03:39:30 PM »

heavy rain's greatest weakness is the terrible plot and how seriously it takes itself. for a game that purports to be about "storytelling," shouldn't telling a story that's, y'know, good be a requirement?

The plot gets good on the second half of the game when there's a lot of action sequences, but until then there's a bunch of useless interactive scenes that could be just be told through non-interactive movies and wouldn't be so tedious and ridiculous.


Ok.  That's pretty awful.  Would be a better sequence if you could just chase the guy.

I'm playing L.A. Noire right now and indeed, the chases in that game are much better.
Logged

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
Print
Jump to:  

Theme orange-lt created by panic