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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperPlaytestingI hate bullet hell shooters, so I'm making this instead
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Author Topic: I hate bullet hell shooters, so I'm making this instead  (Read 32164 times)
I_smell
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« Reply #160 on: October 26, 2012, 05:21:16 AM »

That's definately really interesting, but I don't think anyone would pick up on that system. Personally I'd just go to the shop inbetween every mission, and then read on a forum somewhere a month later that I wasn't supposed to do that, and be really annoyed.

I think it's kind of abstract to ask players to figure out whether this was a long mission or a short one, in-fiction. They're all just levels, really.

...Yeah it's an interesting idea, having the shop charge up over time, but then people would avoid going to the shop and I don't want that. MAYBE I could have better items appear if you have more money, but that's slightly dangerous for the same reason. I'll write that one down though, cos doing it by money is basically the same idea.
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Graham-
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« Reply #161 on: October 26, 2012, 05:51:31 AM »

Uh... not if you designed it well. What are you talking about.

You would have to design the game in such a way so that the mechanic is interesting, and compelling, and that the player understands how he is supposed to use it. Not using a mechanic because the player wouldn't get it isn't a good reason.

*sigh* Do whatever you want. Work with the idea.

For example: maybe the shop owner's attitude is tied to world events. Those events are reflected by enemy behaviour. If they are pissed that means the world is in danger or some shit, and the shop owner freaks out and sells cheap. Maybe he indicates that by saying, "fuck, if shit gets worse we're all fucked!" Then when you see a million billion of the guys that scare him in the next level you know he'll be tearing down prices.

Or maybe it's a randomized event based on your performance. If you play conservatively he is more likely to respond in a certain way. Maybe he actually _corals_ the player in interesting directions, by setting prices according to some function, based on what you do, that conforms to a believable and interesting personality. Maybe this personality evolves over time. Maybe he genuinely pushes you in a good strategic direction. Maybe sometimes he doesn't, and the player has to figure out which is which. This can be as simple and subtle as you want.

You don't need to make the shop charge. Pick whatever way you want the player to think about the shop, then build a system that pushes him in that direction. If you want him to not obsess, then don't restock until he plays a mission. Maybe the special items restock every 2-3. If you want him to always check, then have at least one thing change each mission. Pick a play pattern, design a shop pattern; game design.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 06:18:47 AM by Graham. » Logged
I_smell
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« Reply #162 on: October 26, 2012, 07:00:59 AM »

I am game designing! I'm pricing everything in a way that after mission 1, you only have enough money to buy n equip mines, so then in mission 2 I can show people why it's good to use different weapons in an environment where I still know what they've got equipped.
I'm having 3 random common items, one random rare or higher item and one extra collectible available in the shop every time, and there's 2 rare items if you have surplus money.
There's random discounts on common items, and if you wait around with 85% of the money you need for something expensive, it'll eventually come down. None of this is surfaced to the player as numbers and statistics, it'll hopefully all just come off as natural human interaction.

I'm not tieing the shop to world events, because feeling like a part of the larger world isn't a big strength of this game. If this was a game like Mass Effect, or Zelda, or Final Fantasy then yes that would be an awesome idea. You'd TOTALLY know that there's a meteor falling and it'd be TOTALLY fun to haggle prices down with that.
This game isn't nearly as involved with whole villages and towns of people. There's like 5 characters, and macro-level plot points are built to tie levels and enemies together more than for people to actually be invested in it.
I'm not avoiding this idea because I don't get it, I'm avoiding this idea because it's leaning heavily on the weakest parts of the game: the sense of its world, and it's story arc. I'm not expecting people to really keep watch on that stuff. I COULD have a closing-down-sale at the end n have some fun with that, that's probably a good idea.

I COULD- if I have some kind of meta-game where you collect figures and play some kind of warhammer side-game tactics game inbetween missions or something- I could have those people respond to in-fiction plot points. They would need fuel for something to talk about anyway. And they'd be as optional as the plot, so anyone who's invested enough to do that is probably invested enough to keep up with what's going on. Probably.

I feel like the shopkeeper has enough variables though, I don't wanna tie him to this plot too much. Yes I am also, by the way, designing small things into it to keep things interesting. Like if you're on NewGame+ he'll give you high-level tips and talk more openly about enemies you'll see later on. I'm not wandering around with my eyes closed here.

And taking out things nobody would get is totally a legit reason. I could put in a crafting system where you collect enemy parts to build certain weapons out of em so you don't have to spend as much money- I could name loads of stuff that'd just be a weird distraction.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 07:09:01 AM by I_smell » Logged
I_smell
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« Reply #163 on: October 26, 2012, 07:23:03 AM »

Also sorry if I come off as abbrassive, I generally appreciate being challenged on what I'm doing.
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Graham-
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« Reply #164 on: October 26, 2012, 07:45:29 AM »

No, you're not abrasive. I promise you, conflict is my life blood. There is never enough.

So don't design the shop that way.... "Story" is whatever you want it to be. The player always engages in some kind of story. It might go like this, "I fucking ruled the first level, then was overwhelmed and mildly bored. Then I lost a lot... until a long stretch of a slow uphill battle that ended with a pretty satisfactory insight about controlling my attention and reflexes. Then that boss kind of got me down...." And on and on. Tie the shop into _that_ story.

If you want the shop to matter then tie it in to everything. Look at Mario's jumping and running. It applies in every scenario. That's good design. If you care enough about this dude's personality, but are like worried that people won't get it, then either simplify it or tie it into something that does matter.

For example: what do you want the player to pay attention to? There are a million little nuances the player should learn to master your game, hopefully. I mean - and this is obvious - if that's not the case with any game then that game needs more stuff. I'm sure yours has it. So pick some things and have the keeper "teach" them. The player needs to learn "X," like to be more patient when the green/blue guys mix or whatever. Somehow the shopkeeper knows about this, using whatever plot construction you want, and now the rewards(/punishments) he gives are tied to it, impartially.

So now a visit to the shop is a reflection on the player's success, kind of like giving him a rating, but with personality, focused on a particular issue. Then the player is always curious about what the keeper would say next. Will he be mad? What does that mean? I thought I played aggressively last match? Maybe I need to be aggressive with _rockets_.... He is mad! Maybe it's partially random....

His intelligence can literally be based on a single variable, like the number of bullets closely avoided, then fluctuate with his personality. That feature takes like an hour to implement. The guy would be a mix of mechanical instruction and personality. The player would have to extract the two from each other in his mind, forcing him to pay careful attention to both, thus igniting the meaning of each. He would have an expectation of the next shop visit, a desire to see and understand what happens in there, and the aftertaste that makes him more attuned to a particular set of the mechanics.

See, how you leverage this isolated problem, of how do I make a personality-filled shopkeeper without breaking the game, into a tool to help you enhance the existing core mechanics? You don't _have_ to make him anything. You were just going on about this personality thing. I think just making him slightly random, and have him maintain some kind of reasonable base pace, is enough to make him interesting and his mechanics not confusing, but if you want more there it is.

I would never put something big in if it didn't matter. If something is worth taking up the player's time then it's worth making as good as possible. Tie everything together. Reuse is the holy grail of elegant design.
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I_smell
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« Reply #165 on: November 21, 2012, 09:45:21 PM »

Concepting so--OH hey it's a new page. Concepting some stuff:



I got halfway through making Level 3 and realised that I didn't have enough concept art for the final room, and in order to make the final room I guess I'm gonna have to figure out what the boss is.
The concept is that it's a TRON Master Control computer. Or y'know SHODAN or HAL 2000 or something. Actually, writing this post is the first time I had to nail down some examples, so maybe I should go back to this. It's not coming out very amazing so far, as you can see.

Here's that Level 3, by the way. You fly into a giant ship and crack it open from the inside:

(it has a low framerate because I bought this computer to make Flash games on)

The last section, and this new concept art, took me like the passed couple days. I'm not working on this just cos I'm busy with other stuff. I don't have much money right now. My last game is the #4 highest-ranked on Steam Greenlight, so maybe it'll get on Steam in December, and that'll be a big help.
I'm really conflicted about my last game though, it's basically that I don't like it any more, even though I hope people still buy it. So that sucks. I've talked about that before.

Anyway that counts as an update.
I'm hoping the final room of this level will be flying AROUND the boss, like that boss fight in Twilight Princess? Where you ride the drill? You know the one.

« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 06:19:58 AM by I_smell » Logged
moi
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« Reply #166 on: November 22, 2012, 10:15:31 AM »

I've not been following this devlog(because devlogs are boring) but this video is really nice Hand Thumbs Up Left
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