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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignWhy aren't we asking the question, "what makes a good game"?
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Author Topic: Why aren't we asking the question, "what makes a good game"?  (Read 9204 times)
Mikademus
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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2012, 03:23:32 PM »

Hey TIGForums.

Hiya.

Quote
"what makes a good game"?  

1) A good idea.
2) A good execution.

Hope that helps.

Kthxbye!
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\\\"There\\\'s a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,\\\" says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex. --IGN<br />My compilation of game engines for indies
Uykered
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« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2012, 03:42:07 PM »

just need 2 b good!!11 no thinking required!
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2012, 03:47:58 PM »

>What makes a game good is almost entirely subjective.

We have to be able to establish some GUIDELINES.  Not rules, but guidelines, just as we have in every other medium.

You do know that the "guidelines" for other mediums are just the basics of the medium. The guideline to writing a book to putting words on pages. The guideline to making a movie is take pictures that when played in a specific order show motion. The guideline to painting is use some kind of paint.

The reason why the question "what makes a good game" is fundamentally stupid is because you are talking about a very wide medium. It would be like comparing Indiana Jones, an action-adventure movie, to Schindler's List, a dramatic historical movie. And that's just by the same director. What makes a visual novel a good game is much different from what makes a first person shooter a good game.

So really you are speaking nonsense. Blithering idiocy.
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Chris Pavia
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2012, 04:38:19 PM »

Not to mention that the shining examples of any medium are often ones who subvert or cleverly break said guidelines.
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cystem glitch
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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2012, 04:59:29 PM »

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Uykered
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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2012, 05:09:57 PM »

The reason why the question "what makes a good game" is fundamentally stupid is because you are talking about a very wide medium.

Oh no the amount of games is too wide!
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noah!
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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2012, 05:10:51 PM »

Okay, so I actually read the article, and I can't say how I feel. It seems like he's directing his argument toward the wishy-washy lens of "new games journalism", and is all bitter and outraged at how it's all style and no substance. All pretension and no pragmatism.

And personally, I don't care.

What you gotta know is that I love that kind of stuff. I love to spend five minutes on an aside about Tim Rogers's fifty-dollar underpants, then wonder how it relates to Killer7. Sometimes it doesn't, but I like to wonder anyway. That's part of the magic.

My main point is that I reject your belief that it is the responsibility of games journalists to shape the direction of the medium, if such a thing is even possible. Do I think that it is worthwhile for people to take a deep look at the state of video games once in a while? Absolutely. Do I think that should be norm? Not really.

But don't get me wrong. I think you are making AllGood points. They're just targeted at the wrong audience. Also, they're not very good points. I've recently come to kind of resent this whole idea of "mechanics-as-god" design, I think partially due to this thread. So they might actually be good points. I'm not sure.

In summary, I really hope you become the next icycalm. Because now original-flavor icycalm has become boring and too expensive and I think I may have figured out how to effectively DDOS him.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 05:30:12 PM by Noah! » Logged
Dragonmaw
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« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2012, 05:20:47 PM »

The reason why the question "what makes a good game" is fundamentally stupid is because you are talking about a very wide medium.

Oh no the amount of games is too wide!

Just like yo mama
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PowRTocH
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« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2012, 05:23:46 PM »

A better question is "what makes a game within this particular genre good", and even then there's lots of variance there.

That's still a dumb question.
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Fallsburg
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« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2012, 05:28:16 PM »

This is a meaningless discussion.  "Good" means nothing.  Here's a list of things that might make a game "good":

Fun                 (SMB3)
Deep                (Chess)
Compelling          (DOTA)
Exciting            (Quake)
Moving              (Passage)

That's just a tiny sample.  A game might be one (or many or none) and still be thought of as "good".
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stevesan
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« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2012, 05:36:48 PM »

Yeah, I'm sorry to join the dog-pile, but it's a meaningless question. What makes a game good is almost entirely subjective. As Dragonmaw stated, it might be meaningful to ask the question about a genre, but I am wary of even that (admittedly, so was he).  For example, I love the streamlined nature of Brogue, but that might be the thing that turns off a lover Dungeon Crawl. (or Nethack). 

I would say that what makes a game good is what you like, and as developers we should try to make the games we like.

Well said, sir. Well fucking said.
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stevesan
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« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2012, 05:42:21 PM »

And just because something is entirely subjective doesn't mean that we can't make meaningful progress. That's a false intellectual dichotomy. We can still share ideas and philosophies with the attitude that what works for one may not work another, and vice versa. Video games are such a rich, exciting medium to work in!! To boil it down a small set of guidelines or a single philosophy is to cheat yourself of its vastness.
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Derek
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« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2012, 05:44:48 PM »

This is a meaningless discussion.  "Good" means nothing.  Here's a list of things that might make a game "good":

Fun                 (SMB3)
Deep                (Chess)
Compelling          (DOTA)
Exciting            (Quake)
Moving              (Passage)

That's just a tiny sample.  A game might be one (or many or none) and still be thought of as "good".

It can't be completely meaningless... I mean, you chose 5 games: SMB3, chess, DOTA, Quake, and Passage. If it were meaningless, you could swap those games out for Cheetahmen 2, Superman 64, Bubsy 3d, Tattoo Assassins, and a bagel, and we'd be none the wiser (cue canned joke about Passage/the bagel).

Some games are more gooder and some games are more worser (i.e. less gooder). Shrug
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Haite
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« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2012, 06:07:15 PM »

Hi, I am new here, but I have to agree with the OP. There should be, at least, guidelines to make good games, because other midias like, paint, films, book, all have this. I think that people are afraid of this question because we have so many "uncommon games" that a general rule doesn't feel right, but I belive that they are exception, or at least we should consider they exception for now, because we have to get a starting point to base theorys and guidelines.
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s0
o
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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2012, 06:12:05 PM »

Yeah, I'm sorry to join the dog-pile, but it's a meaningless question. What makes a game good is almost entirely subjective. As Dragonmaw stated, it might be meaningful to ask the question about a genre, but I am wary of even that (admittedly, so was he).  For example, I love the streamlined nature of Brogue, but that might be the thing that turns off a lover Dungeon Crawl. (or Nethack). 

I would say that what makes a game good is what you like, and as developers we should try to make the games we like.

Well said, sir. Well fucking said.
Brogue is actually pretty popular with hardcore roguelike players (including me) and has a lot to offer to people who are familiar with Nethack, ADOM, Crawl etc. It's been one of my most played roguelikes for the past few months.

I know that's not your point, I just thought I'd throw that out there.
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Falmil
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« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2012, 06:30:48 PM »

I think the OP just posted this as an "ask and ye shall receive" type deal for some passing Internet deity to get the formula for good games. Such a guideline does not exist (or was perhaps long forgotten?)
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mirosurabu
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« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2012, 06:58:30 PM »

I do that all the time in art games threads.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2012, 07:21:52 PM »

Hi, I am new here, but I have to agree with the OP. There should be, at least, guidelines to make good games, because other midias like, paint, films, book, all have this. I think that people are afraid of this question because we have so many "uncommon games" that a general rule doesn't feel right, but I belive that they are exception, or at least we should consider they exception for now, because we have to get a starting point to base theorys and guidelines.

again, i don't really see this -- what are these supposed guidelines to paintings, films, and books? i know professional artists, filmmakers, and novelists, and have talked with them about their fields quite a bit, and none of them ever told me that there are any guidelines about what makes works in their media great. other media vary even more than games do, not less. there's a greater variety of movies and novels than there are a variety of games, simply because they're older
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noah!
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« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2012, 08:09:05 PM »

As an aside, I just looked through the OP's post history, and it seems that all but two of them are either new threads talking about one of his blog posts, or replies within one of the threads he's started. So it's reasonable to assume that he's using the forum to pimp out his blog/game.

(and i think he managed to slip in a link to his blog in those other two posts too...)
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Desert Dog
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« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2012, 10:03:54 PM »

As an aside, I just looked through the OP's post history, and it seems that all but two of them are either new threads talking about one of his blog posts, or replies within one of the threads he's started. So it's reasonable to assume that he's using the forum to pimp out his blog/game.

(and i think he managed to slip in a link to his blog in those other two posts too...)

And in those blog posts where 2 (by all accounts, excellent) tutorials on art, one on HUI design for smart phones, and 2 articles on game design.

So clearly nothing the indie game dev community are interested in. We don't want someone like that hanging about on these forums. Do we?   Undecided
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