Blademasterbobo
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« Reply #160 on: March 24, 2012, 01:00:14 PM » |
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We still have until the end of the month to beat it, right? I doubt I'll do the second part, but (even though I'm starting to really hate the dungeons) I'll probably finish the last two dungeons if we do. Otherwise I guess I can write up a thing on what I played.
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SirNiko
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« Reply #161 on: March 24, 2012, 02:32:42 PM » |
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You can obviously keep on playing it for as long as you like. I dunno when we're going to kick off La Mulana.
I just figured we'd start discussing since the conversation has petered off and I was worried folks were finishing up.
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dustin
Level 6
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« Reply #162 on: March 24, 2012, 07:58:44 PM » |
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Yeah I'm close to finishing the game but I don't think anything I play now will change my opinions. The big two seem to be in line with what everyone's saying...
The openness is great! It's not just that you can do things out of order but that if your just playing the game without a guide you will do things out of order and that's no problem. Way different then other zelda games I've played were you often can do dungeons in slightly different order but it's obviously not meant for that.
some of the secrets are ridiculous. I've found 1 secret that was just burning some random bush and I'm sure there are more of them but I don't want to wander around burning every single bush looking for random ones. Same with the walls in the dungeons. Also I don't like that when I restart a dungeon I only have 3 hearts. It means I can either beat every dungeon with 3 hearts or grind for hearts every time I die, neither of which is fun. It just feels like it's adding artificial length to the game.
Combat is good but the sword play is so much smoother/nicer in LttP. I do love that bombs don't hurt you. This should be in all 2d zelda games, it makes them a much more interesting item.
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baconman
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« Reply #163 on: March 26, 2012, 06:16:00 PM » |
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I love how you can't just farm grass and bushes for rupees and hearts. If you're looking for goodies, you either find a secret, or you fight for it. You can't just "duck out" of battling.
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Blademasterbobo
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« Reply #164 on: March 29, 2012, 08:19:29 PM » |
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Pretty much liked / disliked the same things as everyone else. I loved filling in blank spots on the map - definitely my favorite part. I liked the earlier dungeons, but they started getting really annoying and stupid (to the point where I just stopped playing.) I hated stuff like needing bombs to get past certain rooms (welp, time to leave the dungeon and grind for shit. Hope I don't die after I get past that room again!!!)
So basically, now I want to make a Zelda clone focused on exploring shit, and I hate the dungeons in this game.
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« Reply #165 on: March 30, 2012, 06:50:51 AM » |
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regarding dungeon design, i put together a little thingy showing a bit about how they were designed. Note that all the level maps are displayed here, so don't click if you don't want those revealed to you. http://sites.google.com/site/paste42/game-minutia/zelda-maps
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #166 on: March 30, 2012, 07:44:22 AM » |
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i knew they all fit together like that, but i didn't know that's the reason for the second quest (that he accidentally only used half the memory so they made a second quest to use the other half)
also regarding what bobo said about the dungeon design being bad, i'm not sure exactly what he means. the only thing he mentioned is that some dungeons require bombs to progress, and if you don't have them then you need to go hunting for them. but the only times i remember that occurring is when that dungeon itself gives you a lot of bombs (if you kill all the enemies in a room)
i think the dungeon design of the *second quest* is worse, because of the walk through walls things being required to win. i like secrets like that, but i feel that secrets that well hidden should be optional access to secret areas or bonuses (like with the bracelet warps, or the various extra heart containers you can find, or the magic sword), rather than requirements to progress
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« Reply #167 on: March 30, 2012, 09:44:15 AM » |
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in my opinion, it's fine. it's the second quest, you've completed the whole storyline, and so i give it more lenience than the main quest. honestly, i only played the second quest through with nintendo power when i was a kid, so i don't know what it would be like to play it without hints or maps.
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baconman
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« Reply #168 on: March 30, 2012, 10:13:49 AM » |
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Actually, I think the two spiral dungeons in the second quest were the worst of the bunch. First off, you can tell they're just running out of shape ideas, and secondly, as dungeons they're just horridly constraining and linear. They'd have been better off just making two bricks.
Also, totally surprised none of them were a mushroom.
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Dragonmaw
Guest
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« Reply #169 on: March 30, 2012, 10:47:23 AM » |
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I like that there are dungeons which spell out "Zelda." That's always neat. Kinda like the Wolfenstein level that is made entirely of swastikas.
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s0
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« Reply #170 on: March 30, 2012, 11:42:22 AM » |
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I like that there are dungeons which spell out "Zelda." That's always neat. Kinda like the Wolfenstein level that is made entirely of swastikas.
Or the dungeon in LoZ that is shaped like a swastika.
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Blademasterbobo
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« Reply #171 on: March 30, 2012, 01:11:14 PM » |
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I mean there are quite a few bits in the dungeons where you either have to beat it on your first pass or leave (sometimes you have to leave for shit regardless, aka monster bait). The dungeons are bad.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #172 on: March 30, 2012, 02:07:24 PM » |
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i think that's accurate, but i don't necessarily see how that's bad? would you prefer if the dungeons could all be beat without requiring items from elsewhere? that would make the game much less challenging
i think my only problem with the dungeons is their lack of individuality; most of them feel pretty similar. they only vary in color, they all use the same tilesets. there's a lot of overlap with the enemies, most of them don't have enemies unique to them, or even bosses unique to them. but it was the nes, so that's forgivable. i feel that dungeon design is the one area that the latter zelda games do better than the earlier ones, dungeons in later zeldas feel much more themed (even if they are also more linear)
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SirNiko
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« Reply #173 on: March 30, 2012, 03:10:36 PM » |
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I think what Bobo is referencing is that the dungeons have to be completed effectively in one sitting. In modern Zelda games, acquiring the dungeon treasure enables you to take shortcuts, and it's common to unlock a door or change some aspect of the dungeon to help you skip ahead if you have to leave to replenish items. The gameboy games went so far as to simply put a warp-zone at the entrance to the mini-boss room.
That's not necessarily bad design, though. It just makes the game a little more heavy-handed on combat since you need to get good at defeating foes or getting through rooms unharmed. It does get a little tedious if you wind up fighting two or three rooms of blue Wizzrobes to unlock doors.
The worst bit are the Money Or Your Life rooms, which serve as a colossal waste of player time. To an informed player, it means grinding for rupees before you enter a dungeon with one of these. To an uninformed player, it means grinding money all the time for fear you might stumble upon one, and to the clueless player it means you might suddenly get punished for not carrying an arbitrary sum of money into the dungeon.
A better implementation might be an Isaac style shop that sells items for heart containers, or perhaps a temporary debuff that reduces your max hearts.
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Blademasterbobo
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« Reply #174 on: March 30, 2012, 03:44:50 PM » |
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I started using save states eventually, because some of the rooms are fucking retarded. I quit bothering shortly after
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #175 on: March 30, 2012, 04:29:46 PM » |
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i think that's the problem right there, the moment you give in to save states is the moment any game becomes unenjoyable, it takes most of the challenge and risk and fun out of it. doubly true for zelda
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Blademasterbobo
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« Reply #176 on: March 30, 2012, 04:40:06 PM » |
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you're right, but when a room had 20 of those blue knight dudes right after a room where you needed at least 6 bombs to pass (if you used them just right), i stopped caring.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #177 on: March 30, 2012, 05:24:20 PM » |
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the blue darknuts aren't that tough if you get used to them, or have the magic sword, or the blue ring, or enough heart containers, or a blue or red potion... but yeah, a room full of like 8 blue darknuts is probably harder than any boss in the game (even gannon)
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baconman
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« Reply #178 on: March 31, 2012, 08:02:14 AM » |
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the blue darknuts aren't that tough if you get used to them, or have the magic sword, or the blue ring, or enough heart containers, or a blue or red potion... but yeah, a room full of like 8 blue darknuts is probably harder than any boss in the game (even gannon)
This is very true. Just be glad they don't use custom quests' Gold Darknuts, which are faster and tougher yet, and shoot unblockable swords. That's just disgusting. Money or Your Life rooms: They AREN'T fair. But guess what? Neither is real life. The whole point is that somehow you're caught off guard and you get mugged. There's no better way to illustrate this concept, and it draws a little attention to the sad truth that sometimes crap like this really happens. It doesn't mean to give up, it means to empower people through such moments. And once you know your dungeons, all but one of these is entirely avoidable. How about that?
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Blademasterbobo
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« Reply #179 on: March 31, 2012, 03:17:37 PM » |
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good thing videogames aren't real life
real life has terrible game design
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