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[JLJac]

Yeah the grating effect is cool, and we're gonna use that as well - but I also wanted the standard bumpmap look. Slowly getting there, I think - here's a comparison of two coloration models I've been trying:

http://gfycat.com/WebbedDentalErne

The lantern mouse behavior is because the fleeing AI is really, really, really bad. I cry tears of shame every time I think of it. I just can't figure out how to make a fleeing behavior using A* path finding -_- I'll definitely have to get back in there some time haha.

[tortoiseandcrow]

I'll confess that the difference between the two palettes seems very subtle to me, considering that most of the colouration appears to come from the light sources.

[Christian]

Yeah the grating effect is cool, and we're gonna use that as well - but I also wanted the standard bumpmap look. Slowly getting there, I think - here's a comparison of two coloration models I've been trying:

http://gfycat.com/WebbedDentalErne

The lantern mouse behavior is because the fleeing AI is really, really, really bad. I cry tears of shame every time I think of it. I just can't figure out how to make a fleeing behavior using A* path finding -_- I'll definitely have to get back in there some time haha.

Ah, I was confused. Thought you meant the grating effect didnt work out so you were going with this style instead

And I have to agree with tortoise, not really noticing the difference.

[jamesprimate]

ha! i think that specific comparison was more geared toward me, who has a strong opinion of the differences of course. (left is vastly preferred for my purposes)

Since Joar is working on Shadow Urban tile stuff, and ive wrapped up what I can do with Garbage Wastes for the time being, im back at hacking away at the audio. (despite my upstairs neighbor noisily renovating his apartment!) I had promised a rough audio demo, so here is what we've got going on so far:





The volume is low here for audio nerd purposes (need that headroom!) You may notice its a much more naturalistic sounding direction from the more "gamey" audio of the lingo. There are a few "characteristic rain world" sounds, like the super jump, bat screeches and terrain impact "thud", that i kept from the previous version because with a little polish and contextual application they totally still work. and i like them!

From a technical standpoint its nothing terribly exciting, though we are probably doing 20x more sample instances and procedural implementation than a platformer usually has. basically every audio trigger (of the approximately 1 million that Joar set so far) has around 5-20 samples attached to it, and each of those samples is randomized by pitch and volume within a certain narrow range. This is mostly just because i get way too involved and micromanagy with this sort of stuff, but the world sounds much more alive and deep when you dont hear so many repeated sounds. i get completely taken out of immersion when i hear mechanically repeated sounds in game audio, so im stoked to get the opportunity to take the time and do it right.

anyway, another few hundred triggers, some polish and the same level of detail applied to the ambient audio, i think we'll have a pretty nice aural experience for you guys

here is an older lingo demo clip for comparison, and to slap me upside the head with how much progression has been made (warning the audio is much louder here):

[Teod]

There are a few "characteristic rain world" sounds, like the super jump, bat screeches and terrain impact "thud", that i kept from the previous version because with a little polish and contextual application they totally still work. and i like them!

How much polish is "a little"? Those jump sounds felt really out of place to me.

But the general direction is good, I really liked it.

[oldblood]

How much polish is "a little"? Those jump sounds felt really out of place to me.

But the general direction is good, I really liked it.

See I actually really liked the jump. The natural sounds you're going for here I think work exceptionally well. This is really going to kick the atmosphere up to 11...

[tortoiseandcrow]

Man, those bat sounds are awesome. I'm really loving the rough scrabbling sound when you're crawling through passageways as well. The big thing that's standing out to me is the fall hits. They've got this round synthetic bass drum sound that has a wonderful sense of weight, but doesn't give me any sense of the texture of the ground being struck. Given there's this splash of water when you hit the ground, I think some of the stickiness of footsteps on wet ground might help flesh out the sound. Same thing with the long jump - some anticipation, like a squishy "crouching" sound, prior to the swoosh, might make it seem less mechanical.

https://clyp.it/cnpu0yug

[jamesprimate]

Thx thx for the feedback! Yes the super jump and backflip sounds are definitely worth further consideration. Joar wants to keep some nod to the cartoony aspects, so that's where that comes from, though striking the right balance between "cartoon" and "nature documentary" is going to take some fiddling. We have yet to implement the ambient (atmospheric) audio engine, so I'm looking forward to hearing how this current soundset works in that context.

Audio design is a weird process. It's like erosion smoothing away the corners of rocks in a stream.

And speaking of water, to tortoiseandcrows comment, yes  indeed! we just discussed adding a set of triggers for impacts and etc in specific environments, so wet splishes, dusty fuffs, metallic clangs, etc. this will be layered with the impact sound just as you described.

[Transmission]

That latest dark area is really killer.  I love the subtle warms and cools you've got going. Nice work!

[Teod]

Thx thx for the feedback! Yes the super jump and backflip sounds are definitely worth further consideration. Joar wants to keep some nod to the cartoony aspects, so that's where that comes from, though striking the right balance between "cartoon" and "nature documentary" is going to take some fiddling.

To clarify, I think the problem with them now is that they sound artificial. Air "woosh" would fit right in, no matter how cartoony, because it would have a clear in the world source: incoming air you slice through. But those sounds being metallic results in the feeling that either
a) That sound plays when you jump, as opposed to the sound of jumping. While that in itself is often part of the cartoony style and is a traditional thing for platformers in general, I feel that it clashes with "nature documentary" and a more natural solution would fit both styles just as well as this fits one.
or
b) Slugcat is a machine. I remember Joar saying something about some creatures having artificial origins, but if I understand correctly, that's not the case for slugcat, or at least that's not how it's supposed to feel.

[tortoiseandcrow]

Thx thx for the feedback! Yes the super jump and backflip sounds are definitely worth further consideration. Joar wants to keep some nod to the cartoony aspects, so that's where that comes from, though striking the right balance between "cartoon" and "nature documentary" is going to take some fiddling.

To clarify, I think the problem with them now is that they sound artificial. Air "woosh" would fit right in, no matter how cartoony, because it would have a clear in the world source: incoming air you slice through. But those sounds being metallic results in the feeling that either
a) That sound plays when you jump, as opposed to the sound of jumping. While that in itself is often part of the cartoony style and is a traditional thing for platformers in general, I feel that it clashes with "nature documentary" and a more natural solution would fit both styles just as well as this fits one.
or
b) Slugcat is a machine. I remember Joar saying something about some creatures having artificial origins, but if I understand correctly, that's not the case for slugcat, or at least that's not how it's supposed to feel.

Agreed on all counts.

A further observation: Cartoony sound effects, like the wild west gunshot sound of Road Runner taking off, are accompanied by the stylized "squish and stretch" of classic animation, and tend to be poetic interpretations or exaggerations of the action, rather than wholly invented sounds. Wobbles become that sound that rulers make when you slap them on the edge of a table, sneaking becomes the sound of squeaky rubber. They're cartoony, but they aren't synthetic. I think that, accordingly, the cartoony sound effects would feel more at home in those instances of distortion in the game, rather than in the most common actions you're likely to make. A swoosh while flying through the air as Teod suggests, a creaky rubber-band sound when pulling on a dead lantern-mouse followed by a whipcrack snapping sound when you dislodge it, that sort of thing.

I think part of the reaction Teod and I are sharing is that the game has moved sufficiently far enough away from the rigidity of early platformers that the synthetic jump sound doesn't entirely fit the fluidity of the aesthetic anymore. When things look this dynamic and alive (like honestly very few games have managed before) sounds that are descended from the Super Mario Bros "boing" seem really out of place.

And speaking of water, to tortoiseandcrows comment, yes  indeed! we just discussed adding a set of triggers for impacts and etc in specific environments, so wet splishes, dusty fuffs, metallic clangs, etc. this will be layered with the impact sound just as you described.

Really looking forward to hearing the terrain sounds! The landscapes you've made are so evocative. Where would there be dry dusty sounds, though? I mean, maybe its *spoilers* but is there going to be a space where the rain has time to evaporate and leave things dry? I get the impression from the levels that Rain World is such a soggy place that you could probably get away with using modified water sounds for pretty much everything.

[jamesprimate]

ah this is fun, thank you! no one ever gets into debates about audio design philosophy around here 

in defense of le Mario Bros jumps, one of the reasons they remain to be used in many games is readability. in a sound environment like this where most of the mid-ground aural texture will be composed of various ambiguous white/pink noise elements (bat flaps, wind, gravel, crunching steps, water, etc etc), having a distinct palette for important moves is key, as it functions as significant "aural UI". To the player in a chaotic sound environment, a white noise "whoosh" is useless in a sea of white noise "wooshes".

also there is a point to be made about diagetic audio vs experiential audio. in my design philosophy, conveying the mood and a satisfying "experience" of the action / sound / music / etc. takes a slight precedence over some sort of cohesion ideal: just like with the visual UI debate, it is a game and sometimes there will need to be game sounds. the reason i kept this specific sproing from the lingo alpha is that it *feels really good* in-game, and i can say this comfortably without bias since its not "my sound". I just like it!

*BUT* these are much more general comments about these topics! I think in this case its very possible were just so used to hearing that "pounce" sound (after playing it for 3 years) that it can't possibly seem out of place to us. Our ears are TIN for this specific case! So if its sticking out then its sticking out, and i value your opinions, especially as you both went to great lengths to describe the context for them. You guys are the best!

In this version, that sound is a blend of the original alpha sproing sound tempered with a filtered white noise air woosh like Teod describes, so ill def try some re-leveling and blending of sporings keeping these opinions in mind. Im sure there is a balance where we can subtly satisfy our sproing lust and ALSO make it not sound like mickey mouse just dropped randomly into the screen for everybody else. And if not, other options will be explored!    

edit:

I get the impression from the levels that Rain World is such a soggy place that you could probably get away with using modified water sounds for pretty much everything.

oh! i wanted to talk about this a little, as Joar had said something similar. with such a large world that we have going on, in my opinion uniformly coating everything with a similar aural texture would be a huge missed opportunity for immersion, especially since its so easy to implement a more dynamic solution! its those subtle differences that add so much IMHO

and ill be honest, there is no way my obsessive audio micromanagement tendencies would let such a thing fly XD

[TopherPirkl]

ah this is fun, thank you! no one ever gets into debates about audio design philosophy around here 

in defense of le Mario Bros jumps, one of the reasons they remain to be used in many games is readability. in a sound environment like this where most of the mid-ground aural texture will be composed of various ambiguous white/pink noise elements (bat flaps, wind, gravel, crunching steps, water, etc etc), having a distinct palette for important moves is key, as it functions as significant "aural UI". To the player in a chaotic sound environment, a white noise "whoosh" is useless in a sea of white noise "wooshes".

also there is a point to be made about diagetic audio vs experiential audio. in my design philosophy, conveying the mood and a satisfying "experience" of the action / sound / music / etc. takes a slight precedence over some sort of cohesion ideal: just like with the visual UI debate, it is a game and sometimes there will need to be game sounds. the reason i kept this specific sproing from the lingo alpha is that it *feels really good* in-game, and i can say this comfortably without bias since its not "my sound". I just like it!

*BUT* these are much more general comments about these topics! I think in this case its very possible were just so used to hearing that "pounce" sound (after playing it for 3 years) that it can't possibly seem out of place to us. Our ears are TIN for this specific case! So if its sticking out then its sticking out, and i value your opinions, especially as you both went to great lengths to describe the context for them. You guys are the best!

In this version, that sound is a blend of the original alpha sproing sound tempered with a filtered white noise air woosh like Teod describes, so ill def try some re-leveling and blending of sporings keeping these opinions in mind. Im sure there is a balance where we can subtly satisfy our sproing lust and ALSO make it not sound like mickey mouse just dropped randomly into the screen for everybody else. And if not, other options will be explored!    

edit:

I get the impression from the levels that Rain World is such a soggy place that you could probably get away with using modified water sounds for pretty much everything.

oh! i wanted to talk about this a little, as Joar had said something similar. with such a large world that we have going on, in my opinion uniformly coating everything with a similar aural texture would be a huge missed opportunity for immersion, especially since its so easy to implement a more dynamic solution! its those subtle differences that add so much IMHO

and ill be honest, there is no way my obsessive audio micromanagement tendencies would let such a thing fly XD

I'll agree that the jump sound doesn't quite meld, either with the animation or with the visuals of the scene. I just watched the video you posted, and haven't actually seen any other material from the game, so take that as you will. I think for me the problem is the lack of a solid transient at the start of the sound, it seems like it could use more of a percussive element to give you that sense of a physical push-off from the ground. The "whoosh" itself, I'm ambivalent about. I think it comes across as a little synthetic, but maybe that's okay.

Out of curiosity, what are you using for audio? Is this in Unity? Is it a bespoke audio system? Or are you using middleware?

[Torchkas]

I think an important aspect you're all missing is the mixing.
The woosh is like twice as loud as anything else.

The video in general seemed kinda quiet to me. (I know you said it was on purpose)

[Teod]

in my design philosophy, conveying the mood and a satisfying "experience" of the action / sound / music / etc. takes a slight precedence over some sort of cohesion ideal: just like with the visual UI debate, it is a game and sometimes there will need to be game sounds.

I doubt that aesthetical cohesion and satisfying experience are as conflicting in audio design as they are in the visual UI. I'm pretty sure it's possible to satisfy both sides without too much compromising.
 

Im sure there is a balance where we can subtly satisfy our sproing lust and ALSO make it not sound like mickey mouse just dropped randomly into the screen for everybody else.

I'll be mostly fine with Mickey mouse sounds, actually, I'm pretty sure slugcat makes something similar. And since "woosh" is not enough, vocals (not necessarily Mickey mouse's) can be used to highlight special moves, simultaneously being diagetic and uniquely belonging to slugcat.

[TopherPirkl]

I think an important aspect you're all missing is the mixing.
The woosh is like twice as loud as anything else.

The video in general seemed kinda quiet to me. (I know you said it was on purpose)

Yeah, its a valid point, but it'd hard to accurately judge a mix without all the elements present.

And yeah, the video was inaudible with MacBook speakers cranked, not that that really me and anything at this point.

[JLJac]

Good talk! I kind of agree on that jumping sound in particular, which might have something to do with me knowing the unprofessional circumstances it was created under haha! Think it was something like me blowing on my laptop mic and then messing around with a dynamic pitch bend in Cool Edit Pro Anyways, on the more general cartoony/naturalistic discussion, I think this is a really interesting topic. I won't lie, I think it could totally work out to just lean all the way over on the naturalistic side - realism can't really be wrong. It can be a bit boring however. The art and animation is always straddling this balance of nature documentary and cartoon - and though I know many are more interested in the nature doc side of it, I do believe that it would be worse off without the cartoon element.

It's like onions in cooking, no-one likes to just munch down on an onion, but it's not as simple as onions=bad and removing them makes the dish better. The onion does unexpected stuff when cooked, mixes stuff around, brings out the other tastes. Similarly it tastes better if you add salt, but if you add a lot of salt you hit diminishing returns. In the same way I think the cartoony elements in Rain World add some value. The natural first reaction is "ewww cartoony", but if it was removed it would be obvious that something was missing.

It would be cool if the audio could strike the same balance the animation is already attempting. It's a fine balance though, and might take some tuning. That jump sound might be like biting into a rather large piece of un-cooked onion, to return to the analogy. Stuff should obviously not be jarring, it should feel like a smooth blend, but a smooth blend with some unexpected undertones is more interesting than just straight up one thing or the other.

Update 422
I'm preparing for the big region connect/divide structural change where the game will actually become open world, one way or another. I want to know what I'm doing with this one, as it's a rather important piece of the under-the-hood infrastructure. In the mean time while getting ready, I've been doing some assorted messing around. Today I did a lot of small things - touching up the light shader, streamlining the player controls for some situations, fixing a few issues with the player animation, hunting down a few bugs, etc. Maintenance work. I have also been working on assets for the dark region, but you'll have to wait for James to start posting screen shots of that stuff. I think this one is going to be pretty interesting visually! Maybe I will do a little bit more misc stuff, but I feel like a game plan for the "let's make this an actual open world game" process is taking shape, so I'll get in there hopefully tomorrow or the day after.

[tortoiseandcrow]

To be clear, I'm not arguing for the omission of cartoony sounds, but rather that I don't think the jump sound is very effective as a cartoony sound effect. Cartoons will often exaggerate sound, but you still have a point of reference to see why that sound was used. I'm not finding that link here: to my ears it seems more appropriate for a machine sound effect than a pounce. Having the "sproing" sound more like the twang of a spring might work better, for example.

I was thinking idly about the way in which cartoons, particularly Loony Tunes, effectively used sounds to indicate different kinds of movements through space. When they aren't using exaggerated sound effects to add to the comedic effect, there's a whole host of non-representative musical sounds. The xylophone tinkle as a character ascends a winding staircase, the downwards piano roll as a character tumbles to the ground. It'd be kind of neat to have some sounds tied to the vertical axis, so that they get higher pitched as you go up, and lower pitched as you go down. Might be a nice way to give your movements a subtle cartoony flair, particularly since things like the pipe climbing and terrain bump are already kind of musical sounds.

[jamesprimate]

OMFG so after a NIGHTMARE 2 days of trying to get kickstarters new update system to reliably load gifs, here is the messy result:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rain-world/project-rain-world/posts/1220116

and now it turns out that old gifs on previous updates are broken as well. wats going on kickstarter 

[JLJac]

 

Still, a good update! Two critters in one month :D

On my end, connecting regions! More news as I make some significant progress.