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JLJac
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« Reply #3800 on: May 22, 2015, 11:58:48 AM »

@fizmat, that idea of a potential pause or at least slight dial back of the death rain is kinda interesting! I'll try it out!

@Teod, yeah I think so too, today I implemented some "inside" rain, or maybe rather "in front" rain, I prefer to just call it "everywhere" rain haha. It looks good in an open level, but I'll have to come up with something else for rooms that are, say, more or less underground but with a skylight where there should be rainfall.

@oldblood thank you  Grin Yeah this doesn't make sense at all. Also I think that the terminal velocity of falling water isn't all that high, so I doubt you can get a fire-hydrant sort of effect from rain even if you have a lot of water. But, this is art here - I try to chose my moments when to attempt at things making sense and when to go with more weird expressionistic stuff, and this is definitely the latter.

@tortoiseandcrow, I think there will be a lot of flash floods, as there are a lot of underground and underground-ish rooms, but I don't want to flash flood everything. If you get flooded while you're all the way up in a Sky Islands antenna that'd mean that there is an entire ocean coming and going with each cycle, and that's more hyperbole than I can sign up for  Cheesy

@darklight, welcome! I might attempt something like it, but it would be quite difficult. As RW has lots of fluid animations it wouldn't really do to have some square stuff going on for the water, it would be super Jarring, so if I do try to get water washing around it would be ~~~coooomplicated~~~

@Gimym JIMBERT, Christian, Woodledude, Nope, I have not actual fluid dynamics running. The water fall is just a square with a shader. The water in the game does have a water surface simulation running, but that is a very specific thing where it is assumed that the surface is just a curve in 2D space with water below it and air above it. Actual fluid dynamics where the water can go all over would be something completely different. I haven't really seen many examples in 2D (or 3D) games, McMillen's "Spewer" would be the exception. But if the water were to match the other water stuff visually I'd have to go crazy with shaders on top of it, and doubt the computer would be able to do millions of water particles all interacting and then the shader stuff on top. Granted, it is CPU and GPU so the burden would be split, but for the GPU I'd have to work with blurring and render textures etc (on top of grab passes) so I really think it'd be too much there, aaaaand the CPU would most likely not be able to handle the amount of particles I'd need to be happy either (which would be about 600 times more than in Spewer). So, if anything I think I'm gonna fake it some other way.

@Osteel, hi, welcome! On Rain World is James, who posted right above you there, and me! Feel free to hang around and talk, we're really nerdy and technical but if you're into that sort of stuff we're happy to answer questions etc  Hand Thumbs Up Right
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JLJac
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« Reply #3801 on: May 22, 2015, 12:15:27 PM »

Update 429

More rain stuff! First of all, fixed the splashing through walls. But mostly I made the shader able to fade between different rain intensities, and added physical interactions for the rain.

First, very light rain:



If performance permits I can imagine rain at this intensity come and go a bit during normal play, it could even look pretty good with the sunlight out. But it's an entire new grab pass, so idk, I'll see if that works.

Heavy rain:



This is what I imagine to be the equivalent of very intense real-world rain. It still doesn't cause your locomotion any trouble as you can see from the pole climb, but it assumedly makes you wet and cold.

Grade A death rain:



Possible to move through, and it doesn't outright kill you, but certain movements such as jumping and climbing are really hard as you're constantly pushed down. If you're under a roof you're not affected at all though.

Grade B death rain:



Unless you have a completely covered route to the shelter you're in trouble now. It's still possible to move through, but you have limited control and are violently pushed out at the sides and thrown around in the middle. You need some horizontal momentum to go through it, so the charge jump might help you out. This rain should also kill you, although I haven't implemented that yet. I think it'll be a counter that goes down while you're in the rain, which has a constant ticking and is also decreased when you're pounded into the floor. If you're under cover you're still free to move, but in most situations you're probably done for by now.

Grade C death rain:



From here it's basically a death screen. You gradually lose control where ever you are, and everything fades to rain mayhem.

Oh, also, I just divided these into different "grades" for the sake of showing it off, in the game they exist as a smooth continuum. Also I realized looking at the gifs that the grades A and B look very similar despite having different effects, so I'm tuning that now.

Now to hook these up to some sort of progression that happens naturally in the game!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 12:25:33 PM by JLJac » Logged
Christian
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« Reply #3802 on: May 22, 2015, 12:26:13 PM »

It's beautiful. Seriously, I'm imagining that progression with the darkening clouds and rumbling ground. So good...

You are a wizard, Joar. What an amazing improvement from the original death rain
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« Reply #3803 on: May 22, 2015, 01:31:16 PM »

Nope, I have not actual fluid dynamics running. The water fall is just a square with a shader. The water in the game does have a water surface simulation running, but that is a very specific thing where it is assumed that the surface is just a curve in 2D space with water below it and air above it. Actual fluid dynamics where the water can go all over would be something completely different. I haven't really seen many examples in 2D (or 3D) games, McMillen's "Spewer" would be the exception. But if the water were to match the other water stuff visually I'd have to go crazy with shaders on top of it, and doubt the computer would be able to do millions of water particles all interacting and then the shader stuff on top. Granted, it is CPU and GPU so the burden would be split, but for the GPU I'd have to work with blurring and render textures etc (on top of grab passes) so I really think it'd be too much there, aaaaand the CPU would most likely not be able to handle the amount of particles I'd need to be happy either (which would be about 600 times more than in Spewer). So, if anything I think I'm gonna fake it some other way.
Another example of 2D water physics is PixelJunk Shooter. Also, since rooms are tile-based it would make sense to simulate water by the tiles too, similar to how it's done in Terraria and Starbound. Latest update of Terraria even had those thin vertical streams similar to the gate shower and some of the drainage system pipe waterfalls:



First, very light rain.
If performance permits I can imagine rain at this intensity come and go a bit during normal play, it could even look pretty good with the sunlight out. But it's an entire new grab pass, so idk, I'll see if that works.
I don't think that's a good idea. Will be confusing for new players. Will probably result in a lot of "What?! Death rain?! Already?! Drop everything and run to the shelter!!! ... oh, wait that's just a light one. :/" and "This light rain that happens once in a while does look nice. Maybe that's why the game is called Rain World... Wait, is it getting stronger? ... I didn't deserve this. :c"

I think you can put this light rain at the very start of a cycle though, so we can see that it was going all throughout the hibernation.
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jamesprimate
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« Reply #3804 on: May 22, 2015, 03:09:18 PM »

impending real deal death rain will have other significant tells as well, creatures hide, the screen darkens, the palette changes, etc etc., so shouldnt be that confusing to have some occasional dynamic light rain. plus, the player SHOULD be nervous about the rain! the initial reaction you describe is exactly the idea! the rain should be this constant looming existential threat, and im hoping that even as the player gets deeper into the game and understands the mechanics, the dynamic light rain instills a sense of dread, double checking to see if the other tells are there, etc. And if/when it fades out, a huge sense of relief is felt. thats the idea at least!

Quote
I'm a little confused because I seem some regulars posting like they work on it, yet other times post like they're seeing udpates for the first time.

we live on opposite sides of the planet, so you are right: sometimes the first time actually seeing some element implemented is on TIGS! works just as well as slack or basecamp (more reliable in some ways), and way more fun too Smiley
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tortoiseandcrow
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« Reply #3805 on: May 22, 2015, 04:20:30 PM »

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@tortoiseandcrow, I think there will be a lot of flash floods, as there are a lot of underground and underground-ish rooms, but I don't want to flash flood everything. If you get flooded while you're all the way up in a Sky Islands antenna that'd mean that there is an entire ocean coming and going with each cycle, and that's more hyperbole than I can sign up for

That's totally fair! I didn't even think of the Sky Islands at all when I made that suggestion.

Looking seriously gorgeous, though. Can't wait to see the full transition with palette change and everything. I find myself imagining some cool percussive sounds slowly creeping in behind the rain sounds, as the downpour gets impossibly heavy.

Quote
impending real deal death rain will have other significant tells as well, creatures hide, the screen darkens, the palette changes, etc etc., so shouldnt be that confusing to have some occasional dynamic light rain. plus, the player SHOULD be nervous about the rain! the initial reaction you describe is exactly the idea! the rain should be this constant looming existential threat, and im hoping that even as the player gets deeper into the game and understands the mechanics, the dynamic light rain instills a sense of dread, double checking to see if the other tells are there, etc. And if/when it fades out, a huge sense of relief is felt. thats the idea at least!

Love this line of thinking. Classic horror technique, well implemented. This game is going to be delightfully anxiety inducing for me, I think.
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oldblood
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« Reply #3806 on: May 22, 2015, 04:42:04 PM »

I love the idea of stages of rain. Especially the light rain. It's "Rain World" is should rain a lot and not always death rain...
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tortoiseandcrow
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« Reply #3807 on: May 22, 2015, 05:08:51 PM »

All this talk about rain, I have a question about the rain timer. Is that going to be variable each time you go out?
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Slader16
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« Reply #3808 on: May 22, 2015, 09:04:56 PM »

Does the rain affect the frame-rate?
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JLJac
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« Reply #3809 on: May 23, 2015, 03:22:37 AM »

@Christian, thank you very much! The encouragement means a lot!

@Teod, that water seems to be tile-based rather than particle based, and something along those lines is not out of the question. Just want to mess around with the visuals and make sure it's actually needed first - it would be a pretty huge project regardless. As for the light rain, there's not really a big risk of mixing it up. The actual death rain announces itself with screen shake and rumbling before it arrives (in the lingo build only that, no rain buildup) so it's probably the shaking you're going to rely on for knowing when the death rain will arrive rather than the slight rain effects.

@tortoiseandcrow, on the rain timer, that's not entirely settled yet, but will be very easy to tune. James is in favor of randomized rain cycle length, but I'm a little more hesitant. Pros are that it keeps you on the edge of your chair, and that it goes hand in hand with the procedural nature that much of the game relies on. Pros for having it be a set time (or randomized within a very narrow limit) is that then you will gradually start to learn how long a cycle is, which feels like you would be internalizing a bit of slugcat instinct, which is cool. We'll just try both, I think!

@Slader16, the annoying dev answer is that everything does, to different degrees. The less annoying dev answer is that I don't quite know yet - so far it seems to be running fine with creatures in a connected world, but I have more water effects etc that I want to experiment with, so I'm not quite there yet.

Also the performance is different between my dev environment in Unity and the compiled and finished executable, which sometimes causes some confusion. My current idea is that I will use the slower performance in the Unity editor as a sort of development "handicap", whatever I do should be playable there in order to make sure that the executable will also be playable on slightly slower machines than mine. However, sometimes the Unity editor has weird slowdowns that doesn't seem to have to do with anything - the game gets framy in just a single empty room with the player in it. It might have to do with how long the computer has gone without a restart or something like that. To make it even weirder, the fps display in Unity doesn't seem to know of these weird slowdowns. Currently I have a little bit of "ghost slowdown" like that, so it's hard to know about the rain performance until I grit my teeth and go through the horrible effort of actually restarting my computer  Cheesy
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« Reply #3810 on: May 23, 2015, 04:45:58 AM »

Oh, also, I just divided these into different "grades" for the sake of showing it off, in the game they exist as a smooth continuum. Also I realized looking at the gifs that the grades A and B look very similar despite having different effects, so I'm tuning that now.

I'm wondering how this fits in with the dens - at the moment you have the shelters automatically opening (and closing?) directly linked to the rain cycle. If they don't close in response to the rain, but wait for you to get there, I feel that would detract from the mood - almost like the shelters were designed for you (which I don't feel like at the moment, more that the slugcat is just making use of them instinctively). Even just to see the entrance closing as the rain intensifies to the Grade-C killer rain death-screen would be cool; to know that the system functions without you, whether you make it back alive or not.

I'm guessing up till now there's been no need to have an external indicatior of the den being sealed - if you're outside, you're dead  Concerned

...as you're desperately crawling through the intensifying deluge, you see a few bats skitter into the den, squeaking in alarm. The boom and crack of the approaching storm temporarily drowns out the pounding of the rain, and you make a last ditch attempt to dash for the entrance. But it's too far to run, and you only make it halfway across the plateau before rain punches you mercilessly into the floor, pressing your feeble body against the water-smoothed ruins of a lost civilization... as your vision blurs and dark clouds sweep the remaining light from the sky, you see the den entrance iris shut, sealing your fate for good...
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« Reply #3811 on: May 23, 2015, 04:57:02 AM »

No, no, nonononononono. Closing shelter before the player's nose would be just a frustrating and unfair move. Like forced defeat after beating a boss. It doesn't even really make sense for shelter to close without anyone in it.
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« Reply #3812 on: May 23, 2015, 05:39:32 AM »

Quote
on the rain timer, that's not entirely settled yet, but will be very easy to tune. James is in favor of randomized rain cycle length, but I'm a little more hesitant. Pros are that it keeps you on the edge of your chair, and that it goes hand in hand with the procedural nature that much of the game relies on. Pros for having it be a set time (or randomized within a very narrow limit) is that then you will gradually start to learn how long a cycle is, which feels like you would be internalizing a bit of slugcat instinct, which is cool. We'll just try both, I think!

I think variable within a given range might be the best of both worlds (say, 8 to 10 minutes, or whatever it ends up being). You would eventually learn the minimum amount of time, and every second you push it after that is risk/reward.
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« Reply #3813 on: May 23, 2015, 07:59:57 AM »

Perhaps their should be some kind of pressure plate or other mechanism that seals the den, so that the the dens don't seem to just magically know when there's a creature inside?
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hypedupdawg
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« Reply #3814 on: May 23, 2015, 03:07:03 PM »

No, no, nonononononono. Closing shelter before the player's nose would be just a frustrating and unfair move. Like forced defeat after beating a boss. It doesn't even really make sense for shelter to close without anyone in it.

I agree!  Shocked I'm not saying that it shuts while the slugcat's still playable (which would be infuriating), but if you happen to die on the same screen as the den entrance (I'm thinking as the rain crushes you/screen starts to fade to black), some kind of indication that the den still seals would be pretty cool and have a nice worldbuilding effect; that it's not all about you, if there are other slugcats (pups?) hiding inside, they'll still be protected, etc.

I disagree about the shelter staying open if no-one's inside though - I assumed that the shelters would always shut automatically, as otherwise they'd flood or be destroyed by the rain (which would defeat the point of them being shelters really).

Perhaps their should be some kind of pressure plate or other mechanism that seals the den, so that the the dens don't seem to just magically know when there's a creature inside?

Mmmm, maybe... although the animations look really slick as they are at the moment, and maybe all you'd need would be a sound effect to imply it as you hit the shelter floor - the clank of you triggering the locking mechanism, perhaps?
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jamesprimate
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« Reply #3815 on: May 23, 2015, 09:55:15 PM »


I think variable within a given range might be the best of both worlds (say, 8 to 10 minutes, or whatever it ends up being). You would eventually learn the minimum amount of time, and every second you push it after that is risk/reward.

yep, this is my thinking exactly. i mean, obviously you cant have anything approaching full randomization, that would be unfair and awful to play. the regions are setup in a way that you can find food and navigate between shelters within a certain time-frame, and so the randomization im thinking of would be a fuzzy border around that to keep you on your toes. if we could do it on a bell curve, where every once in a while you get some more extreme effects, that could be cool though. Blend that with the dynamic light rain weather patterns and you've got some potential rain PTSD brewin!

Also Joar is talking about some some subtle experience-enhancing stuff that could potentially be hidden within that variability too, so i hope it winds up working out that way!
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« Reply #3816 on: May 24, 2015, 03:36:06 AM »

Regarding the shelters, I was wondering what their function was. So far, it seems that the areas and other elements in the game all have a in-game reason for existing. Like the Sky Islands is a dilapidated radio antenna.

Why are there little slugcat-sized shelters in the world? What were their purpose for being there, any besides the needs of the player and gameplay? Did they have a function in that civilization? Not sure if you guy have answers or ideas for those, but I imagine it would be easier to think of reasons and mechanisms for why the shelter only opens for slugcats or something
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« Reply #3817 on: May 24, 2015, 02:29:11 PM »

Heyo. Just wanted to say nice job on the rain! Looks amazing, can't wait for the next alpha. Speaking of which...

So, I don't mean to sound like I am complaining, but prior to releasing the next one, could you guys make it so that it saves which shelter you are in, so that when you hide in another, you aren't always respawning in the same place? Also, the disappearing spears when lizards go through shortcuts, and the vultures fitting through them would also be nice.

Also, are the transition gates going to be in? Because that would be epic.

Great work so far though!
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« Reply #3818 on: May 24, 2015, 05:45:45 PM »

The rain is really nice looking! I can see the look on my face if the death rain just came out of nowhere.
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« Reply #3819 on: May 24, 2015, 10:46:46 PM »

Just commenting to follow, as I'm sure a billion others have. This Devlog is inspiring to watch.
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