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[Bennett]

You either pay what the author wants, or you don't play the game. There's plenty of other games to play, including a lot of free ones.

You're either:
1) Saying that it's impossible for people to break this law (which is clearly untrue), or
2) Saying that game developers have power over whether people break this law (which is also largely untrue)
3) Trying to convince people in this thread not to pirate games (which will make almost no difference in the big scheme of things, even if you succeed), or
4) Trying to prove that pirates are bad people (again, this might be true, but saying so won't ever stop someone from doing it)

You're not free to steal just because you don't like the business model or the price.

I can't figure out what definition of 'free' you're using here. Clearly people are free to pirate games (for any reason) in the sense that there is no chance of any negative consequence. Perhaps you mean 'free' in the sense that you are 'free to do something' if the law allows it. In that case, people who live in California are not free to eat oranges in their bathtubs. This is the kind of 'freedom' that has no bearing at all on what you do and what you don't do.

Are you saying that everyone should be allowed to do as they please with no regard for law and order? That people are free to murder, rob people etc just because they feel like it? That's just silly.

No, he wasn't saying people 'should be allowed to' do anything. He was saying, whether or not someone 'allows' you to pirate, you can do it. Just like you can eat an orange in your bathtub. Don't compare crimes which are policed to crimes which are not.

[mewse]

No, he wasn't saying people 'should be allowed to' do anything. He was saying, whether or not someone 'allows' you to pirate, you can do it. Just like you can eat an orange in your bathtub. Don't compare crimes which are policed to crimes which are not.

Eating an orange in your bathtub hurts no one, and is a stupid law that only exists in one tiny part of the world (and there only because the legislature has better things to spend its time doing than striking down silly old laws which are still on the book).

Pirating software hurts someone, and is against the laws of virtually every nation on the Earth.

I don't think your "piracy is like eating an orange in your bathtub" analogy is a reasonable one.

And Derek, I want to see this reasoning in your thread summary post as well.  Piracy is okay because it's like eating an orange in your bathtub.


I mean, honestly.

[Don Andy]

And Derek, I want to see this reasoning in your thread summary post as well.  Piracy is okay because it's like eating an orange in your bathtub.


I mean, honestly.

Also don't forget to include the "Pirating games is like stealing a car" analogy.

[mewse]

Also don't forget to include the "Pirating games is like stealing a car" analogy.

Aw, come on.  I spent the time to add a link to every one of the silly claims I referenced, so that we could all go back and giggle at them again.  At least show the same courtesy to us.   

But you have to admit that "It's like stealing a car" is at least vaguely within the realms of plausibility.  I mean, it's not even in the same galaxy as silliness like "Piracy is okay because CDs are made of oil".  Or "I'm too nice for this world and so I'm going to steal stuff whenever I think I can get away with it."   :D

[Don Andy]

Aw, come on.  I spent the time to add a link to every one of the silly claims I referenced, so that we could all go back and giggle at them again.  At least show the same courtesy to us.   

Hey, I'm the evil guy here, remember? So I'll make you find the references yourself *diabolic laugh*

But you have to admit that "It's like stealing a car" is at least vaguely within the realms of plausibility.  I mean, it's not even in the same galaxy as silliness like "Piracy is okay because CDs are made of oil".  Or "I'm too nice for this world and so I'm going to steal stuff whenever I think I can get away with it."   :D

Weeell, technically "Pirating games is like stealing a car" is even less plausible than the oranges thing. Eating oranges in your bath tub is forbidden by law. Nobody who does gives a damn. Pirating is forbidden by law. Nobody who does gives a damn either.

You're right about the oil thing, though. Although you gotta hand it to the person who made the argument that it is probably his well right to have that as his reason to pirate games, just as it is your well right to put the "evil" stamp on everybody who has illegally downloaded anything.

The "I'm too nice for this world" "argument" was actually made by me (as you're well aware) and blatantly pulled out of context. Seeing that I already explained it back then already (which you blatantly ignored) I'm not going to do it again.
In essence, that argument wasn't even referring to piracy and belonged to the sub-discussion about morals in todays world, that you apparently missed.
As you could've well observed in my explanation however, it is applicable to piracy too (although probably just in my personal case).

AND NO LINKS AT ALL BECAUSE IM A LAZY PIRATE BITCH *EVIL LAUGHTER AND LIGHTNING IN THE BACKGROUND* ALSO CAPS TO EMPHASIZE IM SHOUTING

Actually, though, I'm at work (illegally surfing in this forum) so I'm not all to keen to browse through a dozen of pages to find the one post I was referring to.

If you really, really want though, I'll add links when I get back home. Just for you

[mewse]

Weeell, technically "Pirating games is like stealing a car" is even less plausible than the oranges thing. Eating oranges in your bath tub is forbidden by law. Nobody who does gives a damn. Pirating is forbidden by law. Nobody who does gives a damn either.

Yes, that's true.  Of course, your "nobody who does it gives a damn" criteria applies to virtually every crime in history, so as a criteria for drawing comparisons between things, it's kind of useless.   

Or if you insist, then I can draw a comparison between stealing a car and stealing software, because nobody who does either of those things gives a damn.  You were satisfied with that to equate piracy with orange-eating, and so now with this logical deduction you must logically equate piracy with car-stealing, for I have logically proven it within the framework of your own logic.  And so I charge you yield, sirrah!   

Also, logic!

The "I'm too nice for this world" "argument" was actually made by me (as you're well aware) and blatantly pulled out of context.
Seeing that I already explained it back then already (which you blatantly ignored) I'm not going to do it again.
In essence, that argument wasn't even referring to piracy and belonged to the sub-discussion about morals in todays world, that you apparently missed.

Apologies.  I thought that the sub-discussion about morals in today's world was leading up and supporting why you felt that you were morally justified in pirating.  If it was completely unconnected, then I'll happily withdraw that point.

As you could've well observed in my explanation however, it is applicable to piracy too (although probably just in my personal case).

Oh, wait, so it was explaining why it's okay for you to pirate stuff after all?  Okay then, I'll withdraw my withdrawl of that point.  But just this once, and only because I like you. 

If you really, really want though, I'll add links when I get back home. Just for you

Nah, no worries.  I can easily imagine someone having said that.  Might even have been me, for all I know.

 

[Bennett]

And Derek, I want to see this reasoning in your thread summary post as well.  Piracy is okay because it's like eating an orange in your bathtub.

I mean, honestly.

Where did I say that piracy was ok? That's where you guys keep going wrong. You're so emotional about the issue that you see every dissenting post as 'piracy is ok'.

I am not saying piracy is ok.

I said you are 'free' to pirate because, in the sense that it is an unpoliceable crime, it is like eating an orange in your bathtub. Saying you are able to do it is not an endorsement - it does not mean it's ok.

I mean, honestly.

[Mattias Gustavsson]

I'm actually surprised that so many TIGers supports and defends piracy... I thought most people here would be intelligent enough to understand why it's  wrong... but no, lots of stupid fucking idiots here too   Thank god I'm not one of them  :D

[Don Andy]

Yes, that's true.  Of course, your "nobody who does it gives a damn" criteria applies to virtually every crime in history, so as a criteria for drawing comparisons between things, it's kind of useless.   

Or if you insist, then I can draw a comparison between stealing a car and stealing software, because nobody who does either of those things gives a damn.  You were satisfied with that to equate piracy with orange-eating, and so now with this logical deduction you must logically equate piracy with car-stealing, for I have logically proven it within the framework of your own logic.  And so I charge you yield, sirrah!   

Also, logic!

I am defeated by logic. And I'm glad I'm not God, or I might have a problem now.

Oh, wait, so it was explaining why it's okay for you to pirate stuff after all?  Okay then, I'll withdraw my withdrawl of that point.  But just this once, and only because I like you. 

I kind of quickly tacked in on, because I had to say SOMETHING.
I'll draw the analogy gain (moah analogies) I did back there. Basically, if today you help an old lady over the street, she is probably going to sue you over molesting her. So, while I would be a nice enough guy to help her over the street, it would only get me in trouble or lead to me getting exploited. That's what I meant with the "too nice" thing. Yes, I want to be nice, but it will only result in me being the whipping boy for everything.
So I drew the analogy to piracy, too. I mean, yes, I can be a nice guy and buy my games. But it will only lead to me being the loser in this bargain again. I think the game Bad Company is a good example for that. Hey, you just bought the game, but to get all the content that you ALREADY BOUGHT you will have to pay us again. Moah money!

So, in essence, this means I'm pirating because I get ripped off otherwise. Also, please don't assume that I apply this blindly to every game ever. In my life, I have probably bought as much games as I pirated. I happily buy every game that gives me what I pay it for. It also often happened that I misjudged a game that I pirated, but (believe it or not) I actually go and buy this games afterwards.

Also, please note that his only applies to ME and just ME. I see this in no way as a general argument to justify piracy for everyone. This view highly depends on how I grew up and the environment I grew up in. Without getting into emo territories, and without wanting to sound whiney, but I haven't had an easy life and I've haven't grown up in a rather poor family too, so essentially every time I got ripped off with anything was really a hard blow into the nuts.

Actually, I don't even see it as an argument to justify my own piracy. Sure, I don't cry myself into sleep every night over it, but as soon as I've gained somewhat of a financial stability (speak, as soon as I'm done being a job trainee, can move out and can earn real money) I want to stop with piracy. I don't really like it myself, but from the way I grew up I see myself being forced into doing it.

Also, PLEASE, don't try to rip something out of context here again. If something sounds silly or unreasonable here, then that's because I suck with explaining. Instead of ripping me apart, just ask :p

I also don't expect anyone to accept my reasons of piracy now because of some sort of sob-story. I just wanted to get clear with mewse :p

[mewse]

I said you are 'free' to pirate because, in the sense that it is an unpoliceable crime

You're using strong words like "free" pretty loosely there, friend. 

The word "free" has all sorts of big connotations to it, virtually none of which apply to your statement that one is physically capable of doing something that's immoral.

Perhaps a different phrasing would have gotten your meaning across better?  For example, I might suggest:  "You can often not receive fines and jail time for piracy because..."

Because that's what you really meant, yes?

 

[Paul Eres]

"unpoliceable crime"

The thousands of people in jail right now for piracy would probably disagree with that. Sure, most of them are people who pirate and then re-sell, but a lot of them are just normal file sharers too. It might go 99% unpunished, but so do most crimes -- I once read that only about 3% of murders are solved. Meaning you have a 97% chance of getting away with murder, seriously. But muder isn't unpoliceable.

[Don Andy]

"unpoliceable crime"

The thousands of people in jail right now for piracy would probably disagree with that. Sure, most of them are people who pirate and then re-sell, but a lot of them are just normal file sharers too. It might go 99% unpunished, but so do most crimes -- I once read that only about 3% of murders are solved. Meaning you have a 97% chance of getting away with murder, seriously. But muder isn't unpoliceable.

Aren't it only the people who actually make money of pirating that get into jail? I'm not sure about the laws where you live, but from what I recall if you're the one downloading the stuff, the worst you have to deal with will be a really high fine you'll have to pay.

This is a real question. I really don't know.

As an added note, I think about 80% of the "Woman has to pay 3000€ because child downloaded music" stories are made up, simply to scare people. But I'm probably wrong there.

Wha, that actually reminded me of something.
http://torrentfreak.com/sharing-2999-songs-199-movies-becomes-safe-in-germany-080814/

To sum the above article up: German prosecutors are lazy.

[Bennett]

You're using strong words like "free" pretty loosely there, friend. 

Mattias said:

It's about the simple fact that if you're not prepared to pay the price set for a given game, you don't get to play it.

and then ILikeCake said:

I would argue that your simple fact is simply wrong. It turns out that, while I do pay for some games because I choose to, I am also free to steal them whenever I want.

What I think ILikeCake was trying to say was that Mattias was mixing up the moral point ("you shouldn't play the game if you don't pay for it") with the factual point ("you can't play the game if you don't pay for it."). And sure, Mattias makes it sound like the legal or moral rules actually bind people, whereas people are actually 'free' in the literal sense to break those rules.

There are various different meanings for the word 'freedom'. What I've been trying to say is, we all know piracy is illegal. So if you say, as Mattias did, 'you aren't free to pirate' and you mean by this 'piracy is illegal', then you are just saying something we all know. This doesn't get us anywhere.

If, by 'you aren't free to pirate' you mean 'piracy is wrong', well that is a pretty weird definition of 'free'. It's wrong to work for a telemarketing company, but you are free in all senses to do it. Please pay attention: this is not an argument to show that piracy is morally acceptable.

If, by 'you aren't free to pirate' you mean 'you literally are unable to pirate' then that is just false.

So what kind of definition of freedom is Mattias using? I think probably one of the first two. So I was just pointing out the problems with his statement. Hopefully it's a bit clearer now.

[mewse]

I think the game Bad Company is a good example for that. Hey, you just bought the game, but to get all the content that you ALREADY BOUGHT you will have to pay us again. Moah money!

Means nothing to me;  I've neither bought nor played it.  Or for that matter, really paid much attention to it (I've become a bit bored with all the army games we've been bombarded with the last few years).  But for the sake of this reply, I'll assume that they've done something really scummy regarding their pricing.  I had a similar situation with PopCap about two years back, so I can totally understand your unhappiness.

Now, if I'm following your explanation correctly (please correct me if I've misunderstood you yet again), in this situation you're saying: "This company is behaving in a way which I personally find to be unethical.  I really want to be nice and fair to everyone, but this company has broken my trust and so I shall violate the law of virtually every nation on the earth in order to get what I want without paying their unfair prices, thus making me a criminal and them a victim." 

(okay, you probably didn't actually say that very last bit.  That was actually me stepping into your inner monologue and taking the thought to the logical conclusion.  Sorry about that.)

Whereas in my situation I said: "This company is behaving in a way which I personally find to be unethical.  Therefore, I will not buy or play or recommend any of their games.  After all, there are plenty of great games which have been made by companies who I do want to support, and so I shall give my custom to those other companies instead.  And additionally, I shall write an e-mail to their customer support group to let them know what I'm doing, and why." 

In the end, I had a lengthy e-mail discussion with one of PopCap's VPs.  I wasn't able to change their mind at the time, but they did offer me an 80% off coupon to keep me as a customer (no, I didn't take it).  I'm sure that someday they'll behave better again, and I'll be thrilled to return to them when they do.  Now that I mention it, they may have reformed already.. it's been at least a year since I last checked.

So yeah, my letter to PopCap may or may not have had an effect.  Maybe I'll check a little later on and find out whether they've re-thought their pricing policies.

But I can guarantee you that the only lesson EA has learned from your piracy is that they need more DRM on their titles in the future.


See the difference?  If enough people engage in my method of punishing a company, the company will change its behaviour.  If enough people engage in your method of punishing a company, the company will treat everyone worse.  And they'll be totally justified in doing so.

And as a bonus, I haven't made myself a criminal in the process.  Which may or may not matter to you.  I guess that's sort of a personal thing.

[Paul Eres]

I'm sure anyone could cherry-pick cases either side to make it seem higher or lower than it is. The exact numbers aren't easy to track down.

But I highly doubt the real cases that exist are "made up" -- because for one thing, it'd be trivially easy for pro-piracy activists to show that they were made up if they were made up (you'd just, like, go to the jail and see them not there, or go to their house and see them at home instead of in jail).

From what I've heard, there's a higher rate of criminal prosecution for normal file sharing occurs among university students pirating with the aid of university servers, because it's the easiest to track down to individual people (provided they do it from their dorm room rather than the school library of course). It still happens occasionally in other circumstances though.

The penalties vary by country. From what I'm able to track down on Wikipedia, it's 6 months of jail time and/or a 5000-pound fine in the UK. The US is a bit harsher, with "A fine of not more than $500,000 or imprisonment for not more than five years, or both, for the first offense." and "A fine of not more than $1 million and imprisonment for not more than 10 years, or both, for repeated offenses."

So what I'm saying is: sure, the chance of getting caught is low, but it does happen and the chance of getting caught for *any* crime is actually also extremely low. Rape is also particularly notorious for almost never being prosecuted, but that doesn't make it better, and saying "you're free to rape if you want" sounds a bit strange.