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880032 Posts in 33018 Topics- by 24385 Members - Latest Member: jhewitt

May 25, 2013, 03:39:18 PM
TIGSource ForumsDeveloperBusinessUnpaid WorkWanna help a 12 year old reach his dream.
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Author Topic: Wanna help a 12 year old reach his dream.  (Read 4630 times)
Blademasterbobo
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« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2012, 01:01:40 AM »

http://Yourgameideaistoobig.com
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EddieBytes
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« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2012, 01:10:59 AM »

My game:
Quote
Estimate: $37,800,000
It would take an entry-level game developer 756 years to create this game.

I'll die trying, god dammit!
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The Metroidvania I am currently developing:
http://www.greenspawn.com
Manuel Magalhães
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« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2012, 03:24:41 AM »

I don't think that the original poster is watching this thread anymore (see his last visit in the profile), but I second the idea of making this thread sticky to make other "fresh" developers see it.
i think the main reason people fail math classes (at least the lower-level ones, like algebra and trig) is that they are afraid of math
Can you help me, Paul Eres? I don't want to be afraid of math... :/
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Irock
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« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2012, 04:56:16 AM »

i think the main reason people fail math classes (at least the lower-level ones, like algebra and trig) is that they are afraid of math
As someone who never passed algebra, I agree. Since then, I've learned that if I approach challenges optimistically, everything goes way more smoothly. Thinking something is hard is just gonna make it harder.
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Paul Eres
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« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2012, 05:20:41 AM »

ya, my mother is going through a basic statistics class now, and i'm trying to help her pass it, and i find the biggest problem is that she thinks it's impossible that she could learn the material

real conversation:

-what's the chance that if you flip a coin 10 times, it'll be heads at least once
-50%
-no
-what's the chance that if you have 10 children, at least one of them will be a boy
-50%
-no!
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PsySal
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« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2012, 07:27:12 AM »

... the biggest obstacle for people learning programming is thinking that it's hard, rather than any actual difficulty to it. it's like math in that way; i think the main reason people fail math classes (at least the lower-level ones, like algebra and trig) is that they are afraid of math

There's definitely a lot of truth to this. I still don't agree that C is such a great place to start, but your other points about oop are also well-made.

For sure, though, the intimidation factors of both math and of programming do the greatest harm to those who could learn them, and want to learn them. Programming is a natural activity, really, one that we do all the time in our daily lives when we make plans or use patterns of activity to finish tasks.
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OmahaDev22
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« Reply #66 on: April 24, 2012, 04:45:26 AM »

So... this is what happens when i leave a thread for about 3 weeks. Anyways i have moved on from this into something new much much newer. Perhaps you will see it in 24 days.
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Paul Eres
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« Reply #67 on: April 24, 2012, 07:08:04 AM »

plot twist!!
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moi
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« Reply #68 on: April 24, 2012, 11:42:33 AM »

ron paul
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lelebæcülo
John Sandoval
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« Reply #69 on: April 24, 2012, 11:57:25 AM »

sigh

also

dum
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bluej774
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« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2012, 10:03:27 AM »

I'd like to throw my 2¢ in here.

<opinion>
I agree with Paul that fully learning an OOP language or even OOP concepts in general takes much longer than learning procedural programming.  However, I don't believe that you actually need the OOP concepts to be able to produce even a complex game.  Especially when you're looking at C vs. C++.  C++ doesn't actually allow a programmer to do anything they can't do in C.  What it does provide is a level of convenience to do some of the more complex of those things.  Of course, that comes at the cost of a lot of added complexity.  I'm not talking about complexity in the output of the compiler (although there is the potential of adding complexity there depending on the code).  I'm talking about the conceptual overhead on the programmer.  When I use C++, I usually don't end up using about 90% of the conveniences it provides because I either just don't need them or they would add more complexity in the code layout to do the same thing but in a more C++-style way.

My points here are:
  • You don't need objects to make games.  Structs will usually suffice.
  • Although some projects do benefit from what C++ provides, most don't and would be better off for biting the bullet in the couple of places that C is a little trickier than C++ for the conciseness, maintainability, and portability of C overall.
  • "OOP is always better no matter what" is a bald-faced lie perpetuated by the technology industry.

Of course, this is all IMHO, YMMV.  Grin
</opinion>
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Paul Eres
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« Reply #71 on: May 25, 2012, 02:06:53 PM »

ya, i think i read somewhere that the advantages of c++ over c don't show up until a program exceeds about 100,000 lines of code -- it's only at that point that the organization of classes and objects and namespaces etc. becomes very important

and most indie games don't usually reach 100,000 lines of code -- the closest i've come is 50,000, and that one took me over 5 years to make

but to be clear i wasn't saying that people should use c over c++, just that it's easier for a beginner to learn procedural programming first (whether it's c, qbasic, or hamsterspeak), and that's usually enough to get you started making games; the beginner can always learn OOP later if they need it
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MadWatch
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« Reply #72 on: May 25, 2012, 02:40:03 PM »

You don't need objects to make games.  Structs will usually suffice.
You can do OOP with only stucts and C if you want. It will be less convenient than languages designed specifically for OOP but it's possible. It's rarely a good idea though.

"OOP is always better no matter what" is a bald-faced lie perpetuated by the technology industry.
I disagree. It's true that in some special cases OOP is a bad choice, but most of the time it's the right choice, especially for programs as complicated as games.

OOP has been invented to answer specifics needs programmers had as they were working on bigger and more complicated projects. If you take a good look at OOP concepts you will see that they all address some common mistakes programmers do when they design their programs.

For example, code duplication (having the same piece of code, or almost the same piece of code, at several place in your program) is evil. Duplicating code in your program is a great way to waste time debugging it. But programmers tend to duplicate pieces of code anyway. Inheritance (and also templates) as been created to help programmers avoid code duplications.

Type checking is evil (like if (myObject->type == SOMETHING) {...} else if (myObject->type == SOMETHING_ELSE) {...}). The moment you add a new type you have to modify all your code to take it into account. Polymorphism has been created to avoid this kind of pattern.

Error return code (like functions that returns 0 if things went OK or something else if things went wrong) are evil. They make programs much longer to debug by making the source of the error harder to track (and also programmers tend to procrastinate error management implementation in their code so functions error code are often ignored in big projects). Exceptions have been created to make error management easier to implement and to debug.

I could also talk about encapsulation and namespaces but I think this post in long enough already.

So yes, OOP isn't the miracle solutions. A program isn't good only because it's designed with OOP. But OOP is a very useful tool that can make programmers life much easier. On complicated projects, not using it is suicide.

C is a good language to learn (for those who want to take their time learning and understand everything), but unless you're programming drivers or low level embedded stuff I would hardly recommend it.

C++ is very hard to master. It looks easy on the surface but it has tones of pitfalls. I wouldn't recommend making games with it unless you've been using it for few years already. I've seen a lot of beginners choosing it as their first language because they've been told it's faster (which isn't really true) and then give up after days of vain debugging. Don't quote me wrong, I love C++, it's my language of choice, but only because I'm used to it and know how to handle it.

Python, Ruby, Java and the like are good languages for games. Don't be fooled by the "Java is slow !" and "Pros use C++ !" things. These languages have everything you need to make fully fledged games. If you're not a C++ warrior and if you're not patient enough to start by learning C, then I recommend you use one of them.

My 2¢.
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PsySal
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« Reply #73 on: May 25, 2012, 05:50:20 PM »

ya, i think i read somewhere that the advantages of c++ over c don't show up until a program exceeds about 100,000 lines of code -- it's only at that point that the organization of classes and objects and namespaces etc. becomes very important

Source?

I agree w/ you about program length being a factor, but this seems kind of fishy to me. It's also true that you can pick and choose the parts of C++ you want to use, you can code in C += 0.5 so to speak.

But what about a more modern language to start with like Python or Lua? Or did we cover that already...?  Wizard Wizard Wizard
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Paul Eres
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« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2012, 06:00:18 PM »

i don't remember the source, it was something i read back in the mid-90s when c++ was starting to get popular, so i doubt i could track it down 20 years later. an internet search reveals quotes like this though:

"In the final analysis, although C is one of the world’s great programming languages, there is a limit to its ability to handle complexity. Once a program exceeds somewhere between 25000 and 100,000 lines of code, it becomes so complex that it is difficult to grasp as a totality. C++ allows this barrier to be broken and helps the programmer comprehend and manage larger programs."

http://deepjava.com/tutorials/java/showchap.jsp?section=chapter1

i think it's generally acknowledged that the entire reason c++ was created in the first place was to handle the complexity of very large programs. because indies don't often create very large programs (because we work mostly as individuals) OOP doesn't offer as many advantages to us (although there are certainly still advantages to it)
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