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999707 Posts in 39242 Topics- by 30653 Members - Latest Member: alexscottheath

April 24, 2014, 09:00:47 PM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralIGF Thread 2013
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« Reply #555 on: March 29, 2013, 07:12:30 AM »

@cplhasse: sure,

for consoles-style rpgs: barkely shut up and jam, the spirit engine 2, the way, exit fate, sword of jade, cute knight, cthulhu saves the world, recettear, the aveyond series

for western-style rpgs: the geneforge series, avadon, and the avernum series

i haven't been keeping up with indie games in recent years so others may know more (check out http://indierpgs.com/ for full coverage of indie rpgs), but i'd consider all of the ones i named to be better rpgs than super meat boy is a platformer. in particular, it'd put geneforge 2 in my top 10 games that i've ever played, in any genre.
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« Reply #556 on: March 29, 2013, 07:34:26 AM »

That's high praise, but maybe you don't hold Meat Boy in as high regard as I do.

I'll check out some of the games you mentioned though.
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« Reply #557 on: March 29, 2013, 07:43:40 AM »

i liked super meat boy; i never actually finished the game, but i got to world five or so. i think it's pretty good; i wouldn't put it in the top 10 of platformers ever, but definitely in the top 100. i'd put it around the level of ninja gaiden 2 and rescue rangers (both for nes). it's no super mario bros 3, but it compares pretty well against second-tier platformers

geneforge 2 on the other hand, despite having pretty terrible graphics (vogel really needs to get a competent artist), has a far better story, gameplay, world, setting, etc., than pretty much any other rpg that i can think of. as far as i have played, the AAA industry hasn't made a RPG in the last few decades that's even comparable to it; the last that i can think of was planescape torment back in the 90s.
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« Reply #558 on: March 29, 2013, 08:29:13 AM »

vogel really needs to get a competent artist

He did. Look at Avadon and the Avernum remake.
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« Reply #559 on: March 29, 2013, 08:34:28 AM »

i've played those. i would not call that art very good. it's better, but still amateur. in particular the sprite size proportion to the screen size is still quite poor. compare these two:

https://impulsestore.gamestop.com/images/product_gfx/avadon_ss(3).jpg - avadon

http://img.brothersoft.com/screenshots/softimage/g/geneforge_4-_rebellion-184632-2.jpeg - geneforge 4

the first of those is obviously better than the second of those, and a big improvement. but neither of those is what i'd call good graphics.
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« Reply #560 on: March 29, 2013, 08:53:42 AM »

It's about on par with old-school RPGs, so I'm okay with it.
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« Reply #561 on: March 29, 2013, 09:23:35 AM »

that depends on how old school you want to get, but i wouldn't even say that avadon's visuals are on par with baldur's gate or fallout 1 yet. and those are like 20 years ago. avadon's graphics are better than like, the early ultima games though, yeah
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« Reply #562 on: March 29, 2013, 04:27:43 PM »

was legend of grimrock entered? if it was and wasn't a finalist for anything, that's pretty crazy

dum why u erase post
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« Reply #563 on: March 29, 2013, 05:38:42 PM »

Grimrock is one of the best games I've played last year. So underrated.
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« Reply #564 on: March 29, 2013, 07:55:30 PM »

was legend of grimrock entered? if it was and wasn't a finalist for anything, that's pretty crazy

dum why u erase post
searching google for "site:igf.com grimrock" found nothing, so probably not.
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« Reply #565 on: March 29, 2013, 08:19:00 PM »

Not related to winners, but during my IGS soapbox talk I released some IGF judging stats: http://www.matthewwegner.com/igs-2013-soapbox-talk/#igf
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Matthew Wegner
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« Reply #566 on: March 30, 2013, 12:26:37 AM »

Very interesting... Any chance you could post medians instead of (or in addition to) means?  Means are outlier-sensitive and clearly there are outliers here.
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« Reply #567 on: March 30, 2013, 12:33:59 AM »

yeah, timw alone raised the average games rated by judges by a whole half point (actually it'd be slightly more than half a point; 900 games divided by 467)

the igf would be perfect if it would only use judges like timw
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« Reply #568 on: March 30, 2013, 03:10:46 AM »

dum why u erase post

I was getting all "what about this title and this title and this title and oh shit fuhgeddabowdit Eres is just talking about console-rpg-likes which doesn't include titles like Grimrock(not entered) and Bastion(Bastion got a bunch of noms but no prizes)".
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« Reply #569 on: March 30, 2013, 03:34:08 AM »

yeah i originally meant that the bias is specifically against "jrpg" (or jrpg-style games made by westerners, which are not jrpgs but are in the same genre), then someone asked if i had ever played a good indie rpg at all, so i named a few from both console rpg and pc rpg categories, because they didn't specify subgenre

i briefly considered naming bastion too as an example of a good indie rpg when i was asked about good ones, but, i wouldn't really consider bastion a rpg, it's more of a top down action game; even diablo is more of a rpg (since it has a variety of equipment, which bastion doesn't, it just has a few weapon choices). it's about as much of a rpg as zombie shooter and alien shooter are. plus i also wouldn't consider bastion an indie game (2 million in funding, published by warner brothers), so i chose not to name that one as one of my examples

so to be clear i think the bias i mentioned is specifically against traditional turn-based story-heavy rpgs, not action games with "rpg elements" like bastion, or action dungeon crawlers like grimrock. it's not really an igf thing though, that bias is common among modern gamers and game journalists in general

but this isn't the only genre bias of course, it's just the easiest example to identify. there are biases against niche games in general. there have been very few (if any) shmup finalists for example, simply because most players don't like shmups and aren't very good at them or informed about what makes a shmup good or bad

basically, i think the ultimate arbiter of whether a game is good or not isn't a generalized audience of all gamers, no matter how expert they are, but that game's particular audience, which is often niche. you can't expect someone who doesn't really play text adventures or fighting games or roguelikes to accurately judge whether a game is a good fighter or a good text adventure or a good roguelike, because those genres have standards that outsiders aren't familiar with
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