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June 18, 2013, 06:39:34 PM
TIGSource ForumsDeveloperCreativeDesignHow to Help a Beginner's Game Design Club?
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Author Topic: How to Help a Beginner's Game Design Club?  (Read 1116 times)
Zest
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« on: May 11, 2012, 09:09:02 PM »

Hullo everyone! I was hoping I might call on some of the more experienced developers here to help me out. I'm co-founding a game development club at my college, and we've got a lot of enthusiasm for it, but little experience. We all have skills in Flash programming, raster/vector art, or  graphic design, but none of us have ever actually made a game. A lot of the members are wanting to tackle a huge project like a turn-based RPG, but I'm worried that going for such an ambitious project right from the outset is only going to lead to failure.

So, what do you all recommend for a group of newbie developers? I'm thinking we might try and design some analog games (using dice or cards), or else start with making mods for popular games. Portal 2 recently released a very slick level editor, so I'm imagining that could be a good starting point. Anyone else have any ideas?
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John Sandoval
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« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2012, 09:26:40 PM »

A lot of the members are wanting to tackle a huge project like a turn-based RPG, but I'm worried that going for such an ambitious project right from the outset is only going to lead to failure.

You've got the right idea.
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BlueSweatshirt
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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2012, 09:45:16 PM »

Didn't you have a different username?  Huh? Theo?

1) Do small, manageable games
2) Be experimental and open-minded. Get creative and do wacky, fun things. Explore!
3) Iterate often(doing small games is a part of this), iterating many times will bring you more experience than doing something once over a long period of time.

Making levels would be a great entry point too! That's very good for learning design.

Devoting a portion of your time to listening to talks/interviews/design theory together would also be very beneficial. Afterwards you guys can go over it together and bounce off ideas, share thoughts, etc.

It's important to be open-minded and creative, strive to enjoy it and don't be afraid to fail or do badly. Be supportive of each other with the understanding that you're all there to grow and no one is "invulnerable". That kind of atmosphere is sure to have highly positive results for everybody.
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mirosurabu
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2012, 03:37:06 AM »

I'm not an experienced developer but I do think that one has to love what they are working on, but as a player, not as a designer. This also explains why most people choose large games over small ones.

I also completely disagree with all that "start small" bollocks. Small games are boring and EXACTLY BECAUSE THEY ARE BORING you cannot quite tell when you're "done" designing them, that is, you cannot tell when you've reached the point of decent quality. Unless you introduce enough complexity, that is, but then they cease to be small.

Small games are good if you want to learn programming, but they are shit if you want to learn how to design. My suggestion for learning design would be to start making game that you really want to play, no matter how big it is, and then iterate slowly. Avoid traditional design docs, because natural design doc for games is code not paper written in English.

So as long one puts effort in coding their dream game then I see no problem. It doesn't matter AT ALL whether it takes months or even years. The only problem with dream games is that most people don't do them and instead just write design docs/daydream about them.
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ANtY
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2012, 03:51:36 AM »

Small games are good if you want to learn programming, but they are shit if you want to learn how to design.
Completely disagree, it's a lot harder to design a small playable and original game than to design a huge multiplayer sandbox zombie shooting top-down game
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Quarry
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2012, 04:30:06 AM »

More content = Harder to design, I disagree without you ANtY
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Archibald
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2012, 04:42:31 AM »

Make a lot of smaller games. Not because it's easier, but because you WANT to fail often. If you make a game and it is great you learn nothing (you simply got lucky once and you don't know how to recreate this), only if you make a game and fail you learn what is not working.

Deadline. Deadlines are fun and help you finish games during your life time. Notice that any moron can make the best RPG ever made if given unlimited time. It is the ratio of quality to time used that counts.
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johnki
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2012, 04:45:51 AM »

Make a lot of smaller games. Not because it's easier, but because you WANT to fail often. If you make a game and it is great you learn nothing (you simply got lucky once and you don't know how to recreate this), only if you make a game and fail you learn what is not working.
To add to this, feedback from each of the members on every other member's game should be required. Feedback is the only way you really learn anything (trust me, your game could be the most unapproachable, unintuitive game ever, but it could be easy to you because YOU designed it), and the more feedback, the better. Smiley
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mirosurabu
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2012, 07:23:35 AM »

Make a lot of smaller games. Not because it's easier, but because you WANT to fail often. If you make a game and it is great you learn nothing (you simply got lucky once and you don't know how to recreate this), only if you make a game and fail you learn what is not working.

The first draft of a (big) game will be both small and bad and so, it will be, technically speaking, a small bad game - a failure. You will have to figure out what's wrong with it before you can improve it. When you improve it, you will get a different game, a better game, but likely still not a good one. You will have to keep iterating until you get to the point when you feel it's ready for release.

This is exactly the same process as the one you advocate except that in this one you keep working on the SAME game rather than making hundreds of small unrelated games. And now, tell me, how is your approach supposed to be better than the naive one? It isn't. It's worse. It's worse because it encourages people to run away from problems.
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BlueSweatshirt
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2012, 11:40:34 AM »

mirosurabu, you need to calm down. You're becoming quite overzealous.


Anyway, time for my counter-argument:

It's entirely irrational to call a small game "BAD". If you have a particular preference to large epics, that's fine. But please recognize that as a preference and not an objective truth. Small game, however, does not necessarily mean "SIMPLE", which you seem to imply they do.

A small game is given that name due to it's demand for resources, those namely being man-hours.(which results in the creation of all other resources, etc etc) Your elitist drivel to "just make a big game and fail" is completely off the mark. The point of making a small game is to iterate often. Encountering the same problem and solving it multiple times will bring you much more experience than solving it once over a long period of time. This is extremely important for the learning process, to continually try again, doing better than before each time. In a large project you "can" get this too by continually rewriting your code, remaking your assets, reworking your designs, but then what's the point? You're not making anything in the end. Nothing is coming out. You're not finishing any games or having anything to show.

There's no "Yes! We did it! We made this game!", it becomes "Yeah.. We're on revision 6... Dragging on.. Not much to show.." enthusiasm wanes. It's far, far better to relegate development of more intense projects until you have more experience. By then your skills and techniques will have matured far more sufficiently to develop such a game in an efficient and timely manner, and it will be a much better game for it.
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Zest
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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2012, 11:48:39 AM »

Thanks for the advice you guys. This is a lot to chew on, I'll be sending these off to the other members. I had suggested that we do game jams as a social activity as well as getting used to developing ideas. Anybody have any jam experience or tips?
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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2012, 12:38:47 PM »

You will have to keep iterating until you get to the point when you feel it's ready for release.
I used to think this way too. I took me 15 years to finish my first computer game Smiley Feel free to test yourself if what I say is true Grin
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Quarry
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« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2012, 12:51:09 PM »

I took me 15 years to finish my first computer game Smiley

W-w-what did you make?
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ANtY
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« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2012, 12:59:19 PM »

I took me 15 years to finish my first computer game Smiley

W-w-what did you make?
pong clone
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mirosurabu
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« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2012, 05:20:34 PM »

@Jack Sanders:

If you are into small games then it would be natural for you to go on and make small games. There is no problem with that. The problem arises when you're tempted to BYPASS your instincts because you're told they are wrong.

Yes, making big games is hard. If you do not work hard you will fail. But similar applies to making small games, but in a different kind of way. If you don't like small games but are nevertheless making them, they will suck, and so, you will fail. So, if someone wants to make a turn-based RPG and you come in and tell them they should make a small game instead, chances are you are doing it wrong because that might not be something they would love to play, and so, they will almost definitively fail. (notice the key assumption here - there is no way you can make a good game if it's not something you want to play)

Your second paragraph illustrates the weird over-obsession with completion some people have. Why is it so damn important to complete projects so quickly? After all, completion is an arbitrary point during creative process which means very little other than "ready for worldwide release". And what is the point of worldwide release but financial reward? Sure, you might get lots of praise and whatnot, but all that stuff is secondary and should never be the motivator for making games. In fact, making games (and making art in general, and any job where you are required to improve) requires you to ignore all praise and instead welcome criticism. Praise comes second, as a result of hard work.

So, where does the motivation for making games come from? Games themselves. And progress. If you're making progress then you should be going "Holy fuck, this is REALLY starting to look like what I always wanted to play" and that should be enough to keep you going.

Of course, you can now argue "but there are people out there who cannot do that!". Sure, I cannot deny that. How can I? But let's say you are right. Am I wrong now? Not for the most part. My main point would still stand.

Then you say:

Quote
The point of making a small game is to iterate often. Encountering the same problem and solving it multiple times will bring you much more experience than solving it once over a long period of time. This is extremely important for the learning process, to continually try again, doing better than before each time. In a large project you "can" get this too by continually rewriting your code, remaking your assets, reworking your designs, but then what's the point?

You need to elaborate on each little point you made here.

All I can say now is that you can do the same with big games.

You rewrite code or you write it from scratch. Same thing.
You remake assets or you make new assets. Same thing. EXCEPT that you make fewer assets in big games because you don't need each iteration to be accessible to the general public. In other words, you can leave art/sound/music for the last phase of development and only use placeholder for WIP iterations.

I used to think this way too. I took me 15 years to finish my first computer game Smiley Feel free to test yourself if what I say is true Grin

I used to think like you too. I spent 4 years on making small games and went nowhere.

I, too, have a long-term project I have yet to finish and I don't think that's a problem at all. It's big and it's been 7 years, but it keeps getting better and better with each new iteration.
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