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June 19, 2013, 11:55:12 PM
TIGSource ForumsDeveloperCreativeWhy there are so few indie strategies?
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J-Snake
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« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2012, 03:22:50 PM »

Regarding programming difficulty and structure, I can imagine strategy games are easy to implement because of the more static and discrete nature. When we start to talk about quality a fighter-game is more difficult to implement, my guess.
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Graham.
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« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2012, 03:26:06 PM »

I agree with that, easier programming, harder design.
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rivon
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« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2012, 02:18:23 AM »

The most popular freeware strategies are FreeCol, FreeCiv, FreeOrion, Transport Tycoon Deluxe.
All pure clones. No other genre has so much focus on clones. That's surprising...

So, maybe it is a design problem? That it is hard to "invent" a new strategy and that's why these are rarely done?
You forgot Battle of Wesnoth and that is original Smiley
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JWK5
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« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2012, 01:48:37 PM »

There are fewer good tutorials for strategy games than there are for games such as platformers, arcade shooters, etc. Shared knowledge tends to create more shared knowledge which eventually leads to more games. There are quite a few platformer tutorials out there for Game Maker (etc.), for example, which makes it a genre that is easier for novices to pick up on and experiment with.
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« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2012, 06:47:38 PM »

The most popular freeware strategies are FreeCol, FreeCiv, FreeOrion, Transport Tycoon Deluxe.
All pure clones. No other genre has so much focus on clones. That's surprising...

So, maybe it is a design problem? That it is hard to "invent" a new strategy and that's why these are rarely done?
You forgot Battle of Wesnoth and that is original Smiley

And some great cult games like Dominions and Conquest for Elysium.

If you're willing to stretch the definition of indie to small studios, there's probably more original design in indie ones than with big companies. It's more risk to try something different, which is an environment indie thrives in.

A lot of work in design, but indie games have an advantage in that they don't need to put a million dollars and a year into that game. They can just wing it without worrying so much about design.
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cliffski
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« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2012, 09:01:57 AM »

It's definitely true that strategy games can take a lot longer to get to 'playable' and thus the point where you realise it is worth stciking with them.

My first few games were very simple arcade games, I didn't make a real hardcore strategy game until at least game 4.
To make a game like this:
http://www.gratuitoustankbattles.com
You probably need to set aside at least 6 months full time work before you have something playable enough to know that it will be possible to sell it and thus break even. And that means that you need:

a) A lot of confidence in your ability to finish and sell such a game and
b) Enough money in the bank (maybe from previous games) to live for 6 months+


Indie development is trendy right now meaning a lot of the devs are new to it, so the amount of people in that position is quite low. Most of the indie strategy devs like me, have been around for a long time. I started coding in 1981.
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« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2012, 08:36:17 PM »

It is rarely discussed, but strategy games are a niche genre with an oversaturated market. The relative success rate of strategy games in comparison to other genres is much lower. People know this in their hearts and it is demoralizing when considering creating a strategy game.
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Graham.
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« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2012, 02:11:39 PM »

Also, strategy games are not approachable. Even Starcraft is mired in not obvious necessities.

If someone could make a strategy game that ruled, and learning to play it was natural - it didn't require inherent proclivities and patience - then indies would do it. It is the age of consumerism in design. People don't want to play your game if it takes more than 3 seconds to understand it.

I play Starcraft. Try and teach me how to play and enjoy it in writing (assuming I don't know). Go ahead. Want to learn Mario? Pick up the controller.
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Pixelulsar
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« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2012, 05:09:11 PM »

It's definitely true that strategy games can take a lot longer to get to 'playable' and thus the point where you realise it is worth stciking with them.

That is why I abandoned the strategy game project I started.  Even after I spent a while on it, it still wasn't fun to play. Might try again one day, because I've always wanted to make one...
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« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2012, 04:28:14 PM »

There are few indie strategies because few indies make strategies.

I'm not sure why, "Why" is a religious question that is infinitely variable.

As with all technology, the indie strategies will blossom when their time has come, if their time has not already come.

Long ago, the question was posed: Why are there so few computer games?  This was an era when computers were much rarer, and the indie games I played actually printed their words on paper... Even rarer were screens, computer games were hard to make and play.

As computers became more popular and easier to develop for, so did computer games.  Affordable CRT monitors enabled text games to thrive, they were much easier to make and play as the technology improved.

Though vector graphics existed, the question was asked, "Why are there so few games with graphics?", as the technology became more accessible, so to did the games with graphics.

Once: "Why are there so few pixelated platformers?" was asked, but now there are pixelated platformers galore.

"Why are there so few 3D games?", was asked before there were many 3D games...

Now, some ask again, "Why are there so few new text based games?", noting that their time has passed.

Thus, the answer to "Why are there so few indie strategies" is obviously: Because they are hard, or because they are now too easy.  This isn't the only answer.  People may debate any "why" question religiously.

The point is to find an answer you like, and either do something about it or don't.
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Moczan
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« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2012, 07:12:41 AM »

Also, strategy games are not approachable. Even Starcraft is mired in not obvious necessities.

If someone could make a strategy game that ruled, and learning to play it was natural - it didn't require inherent proclivities and patience - then indies would do it. It is the age of consumerism in design. People don't want to play your game if it takes more than 3 seconds to understand it.

I play Starcraft. Try and teach me how to play and enjoy it in writing (assuming I don't know). Go ahead. Want to learn Mario? Pick up the controller.

That's actually stupid, you can say both things about practically every game and genre.
Try and teach me how to play and enjoy Mario in writng (assumig I don't know). Go ahead. Want to learn Starcraft? Grab the mouse.

Starcraft is a game about controlling characters with mouse in a same sense that Mario is a game about controlling a little moustache guy with controller. Enjoying Starcraft doesn't only mean playing at  GrandMaster level. There is a campaign with Casual difficulty mode. What's more, people that doesn't play games, but are able to use computer, will be more familiar with 'click-to-move' mechanic than with playing using arrow-keys or controller, cause that's what they did in the past.

Right-clicking on a screen is actually much easier than controlling a player in a platformer game for many reasons.
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Klaim
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« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2012, 07:43:16 PM »

I think making a "classic" RTS game is not a good idea.
I think making a game that would be categorized as "RTS" but is very different in the end is a far better idea, even if you have to go into very niche mindsets (like Gratuitious Space Battle).

I'm trying to do something like that (so you can count me as someone making a RTS if you want).  Gentleman

Also, I want another Sacrifice to blow my mind.  My Word!


By the way, for my game I initially wanted it to be very very competitive but after some years (didn't work full time on it until now) I turned the design to a more collaborative, puzzle solving thing that is still competitive but not like jumping at the throat of each other.
Related note: http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/31375/what-can-make-a-peaceful-game-successful/31396
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Graham.
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« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2012, 05:14:33 AM »

Also, strategy games are not approachable. Even Starcraft is mired in not obvious necessities.

If someone could make a strategy game that ruled, and learning to play it was natural - it didn't require inherent proclivities and patience - then indies would do it. It is the age of consumerism in design. People don't want to play your game if it takes more than 3 seconds to understand it.

I play Starcraft. Try and teach me how to play and enjoy it in writing (assuming I don't know). Go ahead. Want to learn Mario? Pick up the controller.

That's actually stupid, you can say both things about practically every game and genre.
Try and teach me how to play and enjoy Mario in writng (assumig I don't know). Go ahead. Want to learn Starcraft? Grab the mouse.

Starcraft is a game about controlling characters with mouse in a same sense that Mario is a game about controlling a little moustache guy with controller. Enjoying Starcraft doesn't only mean playing at  GrandMaster level. There is a campaign with Casual difficulty mode. What's more, people that doesn't play games, but are able to use computer, will be more familiar with 'click-to-move' mechanic than with playing using arrow-keys or controller, cause that's what they did in the past.

Right-clicking on a screen is actually much easier than controlling a player in a platformer game for many reasons.

Starcraft has a much higher barrier to entry.... Mario is obviously the larger franchise.

What I'm saying is, the depth of the game (Starcraft) is non-approachable. Take Chess for example. Chess is respected everywhere. No one will ostracize you for being a Chess expert. You may be seen as nerdy, but you'll likely receive a good deal of at least grudging respect.

Chess is a hard game. You won't appreciate its depth without learning to play. The game takes discipline. If you make a mistake when playing it's not immediately clear what your mistake was, or how to improve. That can make it very difficult to learn. It's frustrating to feel like you're working hard but you're not getting anywhere. You don't want to play a game that will make you feel stupid and not give you the hope that you can improve. You want to be able to see how you might become a very good player.

Chess requires a society around it to support it. The game wasn't "designed." It evolved over centuries or whatever. It was played and played. People played it because they liked it. They learned to play it by playing with others. The knew to respect it because it was respected. So Chess has been around forever.

But now people prefer video games. Think about Guitar Hero. That game is like 1 thousandth the experience of actually playing music. But people fucking love it. They love it because the game is clear. You don't need an instructor to play, or some natural talent, or a "musical family." You just turn on the system and smash the buttons. People like that.

Starcraft is a deep game. But to access that depth you need to study it. You don't need to break out a pen and paper. You can just play and pay attention. But you still have to churn your mind to become very good. That's effort. There is this hidden skill you need to become good at Starcraft. The same thing is true with learning to play Chess, or learning to play an instrument. The argument goes that these kinds of activities, that require more thinking from you, are more rewarding in the end. I believe that. It's kind of obvious. But it definitely makes them less accessible.

If you take just some random person and sit them in front of Starcraft, they will have no fucking clue what they are doing. When I was 16 I sat my girlfriend down in front of my PC while I took a shower, and got her to play the "Bootcamp" in the first game. She made it 2 minutes and gave up, because she was intimidated. She was a soft soul. She was intimidated easily. But she would not have been that way with Mario. A 5 year old wouldn't be that way with Mario; no fucking way.

That's Starcraft.

Maybe my gf at the time was intimidated by the violence. I know my sister likes "building stuff" but has a harder time "attacking" because it's like this personal conflict. She has no problem with shooters, not really, but with RTS she gets that way. I think a lot of girls are like that.

Take Chess again. That is a game that is very hard to understand. There's kind of a "thing" to make games like Chess. Designers say that some times. They want to make a game the has the simplicity of Chess - like the small number of pieces, very few rules - and its endless difficulty and variety. Sometimes I hear "Go" and "Poker" as well. Those are simple, approachable games, but have this depth that just goes and goes.

If you modulate a single variable in chess, if you change just a little thing, the whole game changes. It's very hard to predict how a change relates to a result. That's why the game took centuries to evolve. That's why the game is so hard to learn. There isn't a simple system that you understand then just apply to every situation. That's why it takes a community to produce strong chess players.

Designing a "strategy" game is like designing a new chess. It's really easy to fuck up a strategy game because the fundamentals in the design are so finicky. If you sneeze on them the whole game falls apart. Platformers aren't like that.

When making a platformer it is a lot easier to visualize the relationship between a design decision and a change in play-experience, because one directly relates to the other. If I visualize a new move or enemy in a platformer I can "see" the effect in my mind. I can't do this with strategy. With strategy I have think another step. I have to think a few more steps. The depth of the game is a mile away from the basics. That's sort of like the definition of a good strategy game. It's not impossible to see this relationship, I just need a particular kind of theory/experience to help me do it.

So it's hard to balance a strategy game, and its hard to easily see how a personal experience you had in your life can be turned into a strategy game. Strategy games are this big up-front commitment. You have to be prepared to test and test and refine and test. Indies don't like that because they/we want to "express." We want to make games based on what we feel. So we pick genres that we believe can deliver on what we feel.

Think of it this way. When you design a platformer you are designing situations. Say you have your Mario. You take some time coming up with his move set. That process is non-trivial. Then you come to the levels. You come up with enemies and colored platforms and power-ups and layouts. You're thinking, "what would be interesting for my player to do?" Then you create/place items that will help create that experience. You ship the game and the player plays through each level, dealing with the unique properties of each, thinking through it, reacting to it, and so on.

Strategy games aren't like that. In a strategy game you are "designing" a system to produce situations. It's like you're building a platforming level generator. You're thinking, "ok, given these primitives and these rules, what type of situations will be produced, and, in what way are those interesting to the player?" See the extra step? There is a whole extra step. Seeing the experience produced by a strategy game design is like looking through a kaleidoscope. Every turn you make has this huge impact on what you see. Understanding the relationship between the two is complicated. We don't have design theory to make the process easy yet.

Indies don't make strategies for good reasons. It's not a fluke. Big things usually aren't flukes. We can make them. Doing so just seems like a bigger risk. Or it's a commitment to systems instead of "experience" or something like that. I think as design theory becomes more established indies will produce more strategy games, because then they'll see them as one more vehicle for expressing themselves. Right now it's only sort of like that.  ... other stuff I said.

 
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Graham.
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« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2012, 05:15:23 AM »

Also, I want another Sacrifice to blow my mind.  My Word!

Props. I fucking love that game.
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« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2012, 08:12:13 AM »

I think generally a strategy game is way more involved with the design side of creating. I.e you need to put lots of thought into design, balance, etc.. so usually most indie people are good creators but not necessarily the best designers.

Also in my experience there are usually a lot less indie designers just hanging around like there are artists and programmers. Of course this is just a general observation, there are many fantastic designers out there!
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