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May 23, 2013, 01:38:35 PM
TIGSource ForumsDeveloperCreativeDesignstarting the game off with a boss battle
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Author Topic: starting the game off with a boss battle  (Read 1377 times)
Medevenx
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« on: May 30, 2012, 08:09:19 PM »

I have this game idea (platformer-wise) where you yet to have your attack power (the basic game mechanic itself) and is suddenly faced with a boss a few screens in the game. Also, no tutorial will be available and there will be no pop ups that will help you figure out what to do, but the game itself will convey what you must do.

Basically, you begin having the ability to jump, with certain obstacles (non-hazardous) where you must practice the basics of jumping. After being accustomed to such control and mechanic, a boss battle will come where you must use your jumping ability to acquire the next mechanic which is the attack.

The boss will serve the purpose of paving a way for you to reach the powerup (eg. shooting missiles you have to dodge that will destroy blocks/tiles for you to reach the powerup)

After acquiring the mechanic, you can know attack the boss by hitting him from certain sweet spots that YOU have to figure out.

Is it all too much information to be fed in a short amount of time? Not only must you realize that the missiles of the boss must be led to the obstacle (something not very obvious unless a situation demanded it like you ACTUALLY dodging the missile while in front of the breakable tiles) and of course after the tiles exploding you kind of figure out what to do with the boss battle now.

But then the game introduces a newly acquired game mechanic of attacking DURING the boss battle where you also must realize where his sweet spots are. Now you must learn how to both dodge, AND attack the boss.

Naturally, a true gamer will probably find this easy to understand but what about players who only know the basics and don't really know how to fully utilize the simple mechanic's potential? Will the gimmick itself be too much of a challenge? What are other examples of games that start out with a boss to introduce the game mechanics?
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Maud'Dib Atreides
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2012, 08:17:10 PM »

Top of my head?

CastleVania: Symphony of the Night
You start out fighting Dracula.
But he's nerfed. His attacks do damage, but you start out with all of the most powerful attacks.
Even if you die, this chick named Maria waltzes in and gives you invincibility.

CastleVania: Harmony of Dissonance
As soon as you enter the castle, you're chased by some giant walking armor boss, teaches you to run, fast.

CastleVania: Dawn of Sorrow
You fight a bunch of bosses to learn gameplay mechanics even before you enter the castle.

Then again I'm a total nut for Castlevania.

PaperMario64, Mario and Luigi SuperStar Saga
(You learn mechanics by fighting a nerfed version of Bowser)

Hm...
I'll try to get back to you on this one.
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Medevenx
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2012, 08:36:33 PM »

But were the battles harsh because you had to learn while actually fighting them?
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SundownKid
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2012, 08:48:01 PM »

Not really. Most games that start with a boss battle make it almost impossible to lose - by having a super powered player or being able to play as someone else. That way, the player can test out all their abilities in an environment that makes it easy to experiment before they get taken away. The player can literally mash buttons and win since they are not expected to know how to play.

Other examples I can think of include Nier, Lunar: Silver Star Story and Makai Kingdom. And I guess technically Metroid Prime, since you start with all your abilities and lose them.
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Maud'Dib Atreides
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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2012, 08:56:26 PM »

I don't really think there are any games that toss you balls first into a fight that you can't win as soon as you start. They usually give you abilities and a false sense of power, especially "eye candy" powers, then take it away as soon as the real fun starts.

You can try it though. I'm not sure how the players will react though.

Nowadays the average game player seems to have low self-esteem, and needs a boost at the start of a game. Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2012, 09:02:46 PM »

I don't really think there are any games that toss you balls first into a fight that you can't win as soon as you start.
Demon's Souls does pretty much that - the boss at the end of the tutorial is technically possible to beat and actually isn't too difficult for experienced players, but for anyone playing the game for the first time it's pretty much a guaranteed death. Which is alright, given the death mechanics in the game and the fact that you're meant to die there. It gives you a taste of what the game's all about - the atmosphere of death and the unforgiving boss battles, etc.
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JWK5
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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2012, 09:08:52 PM »

Demon's Crest (SNES)
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John Sandoval
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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2012, 09:18:29 PM »

^is he fighting.... klansmen?
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C.A. Sinner
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2012, 12:25:17 AM »

I don't really think there are any games that toss you balls first into a fight that you can't win as soon as you start.
Demon's Souls does pretty much that - the boss at the end of the tutorial is technically possible to beat and actually isn't too difficult for experienced players, but for anyone playing the game for the first time it's pretty much a guaranteed death. Which is alright, given the death mechanics in the game and the fact that you're meant to die there. It gives you a taste of what the game's all about - the atmosphere of death and the unforgiving boss battles, etc.
i love how they included ANOTHER, actually unbeatable boss for people who manage to beat the tutorial boss
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 01:59:39 AM by C.A. Sinclair » Logged

Medevenx
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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2012, 01:22:21 AM »

Exactly, the starting bosses have ALWAYS been very easy to beat and did not require much thought. The idea have in mind is pitting you against a boss that you cannot face WITHOUT the game mechanic that you must acquire by manipulating the boss's own attacks (homing missile).

However, after acquiring the said power, you don't only mash buttons to beat him but he still has a certain pattern that you must recognize in order to know when to strike. Now is that too harsh to start the game?
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rivon
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« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2012, 03:36:20 AM »

That's hard to decide. You just have to test it. Let other people play it.
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Alevice
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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2012, 10:32:24 AM »

Does the fight agianst vile in the Megaman X intro count?
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2012, 11:37:19 AM »

Some good examples have been mentioned (first thing that came to mind for me was Castlevania games Smiley ) although often the mechanics are just jump/attack which are easily figured out, or you're meant to die anyway or the boss is relatively easy, which has also been mentioned.

If you think that it would not be obvious enough that the boss's missiles must be used to break tiles, you could have a scripted event / mini cut-scene where your character dodges its first missile, which then breaks one of these tiles.

If you don't want it to be spelled out like that, you could make it obvious that those tiles are breakable could also guide the player's judgement.  An example of this is the cracked walls in Zelda games which you can then bomb.

You could also try making a full wall of breakable tiles, such that it becomes inevitable that one of the missiles will hit the wall (if only by chance the first time), and then once the player progresses past that wall the breakable tiles can be more strategically placed.

As for the sweet spots, do you mean spots on the boss, or spots where the player can shoot from?  Either way, if you're worried that the player won't figure it out, just make it more apparent from the design, eg a different coloured tile for where the player should stand, or make the weak spots of the boss more obvious.  Sometimes it's criticised that having weak spots be glaringly obvious can take away some of the challenge of bosses (an example of this is again, Zelda games) but at the end of the day it's better than players being clueless and frustrated in the earliest stages of the game.

But as Rivon rightly pointed out, if you're still unsure then the best way is to get people to play it!  Seeing as you're worried about less experienced gamers figuring it all out, try and get some people like that to try it out, and then if they struggle ask why, or what would make it a bit easier to understand what they're doing.
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Squid Party
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2012, 11:44:31 AM »

Top of my head?

CastleVania: Symphony of the Night
You start out fighting Dracula.
But he's nerfed. His attacks do damage, but you start out with all of the most powerful attacks.
Even if you die, this chick named Maria waltzes in and gives you invincibility.

CastleVania: Harmony of Dissonance
As soon as you enter the castle, you're chased by some giant walking armor boss, teaches you to run, fast.

CastleVania: Dawn of Sorrow
You fight a bunch of bosses to learn gameplay mechanics even before you enter the castle.

Then again I'm a total nut for Castlevania.

PaperMario64, Mario and Luigi SuperStar Saga
(You learn mechanics by fighting a nerfed version of Bowser)

Hm...
I'll try to get back to you on this one.

I was a castlevaina nut, then I spent £5 purchasing the adventure Tired
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Medevenx
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« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2012, 11:13:54 PM »

No the battle against Vile doesn't count because you learn the mechanics of the game before you battle him. I'm talking about learning the mechanics of the game DURING the boss battle.

An example of sweet spotted boss is the Green Devil from Megaman & Bass where you needed to deal a certain amount of damage to the body so the eye will open (blatantly shows you that you must attack it) and let you hit it to actually damage it.

Similarly, Super Metroid has bosses like Kraid where you must attack the red gem on his head and let his mouth open or like Phantoon where you can only attack him when his eye is opened.

I do have the tiles planned where it is fairly obvious that it can be destroyed just by looking at it. Also, the boss enters the screen through similar looking tiles (which kind of tells the player that the boss can destroy those tiles)

I don't plan on doing any cutscenes because I want all the experience come directly to the player. (this platformer idea is heavily inspired by Super Metroid and Megaman X)
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