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[Ben_Hurr]

Also, Human + online mode = consented to pvp interactions, you're fair game

No. I go human because I want to kindle bonfires and summon people for co-op. That's not even close to the same thing.

Also lol, how often do invaders actually drop items for the host? I've only seen it once on a friend's stream I believe, and it was just one humanity that he dropped to help people recover from the loss he caused by killing them.

Exactly.

Just because you can fight me doesn't mean I want to fight you.
It reminds me of back in the diablo 1 days where you'd have some guy join your game and kill everyone that dared to set foot outside of town - except instead of punishing that guy, the devs reward him and make it so there's zero repercussions for failing.  

You wouldn't believe how surprised I was when I dicked around with redstones and found out you lose nothing if you're killed while invading.  It's like a blank-check for being an asshole.


I also find it hilarious when I browse the forums and have some purported invader whine and bitch about spawn-campers and people that unplug their internet; it's like they actually believe they have a god-given right to douche it up and that it should be effortless.  

[SundownKid]

I also find it hilarious when I browse the forums and have some purported invader whine and bitch about spawn-campers and people that unplug their internet; it's like they actually believe they have a god-given right to douche it up and that it should be effortless.  

What? No! Invading is PART OF THE GAME, whether you like it or not. If you go human, you are taking a risk of being invaded, period, end of story. You can't have your cake (being able to summon people) and eat it too (not being invaded). Those are two sides of the same coin, like yin and yang. It was purposely created that way.

Or to put it the other way, if you don't want to be invaded, you shouldn't be able to summon people.

[Ben_Hurr]

I also find it hilarious when I browse the forums and have some purported invader whine and bitch about spawn-campers and people that unplug their internet; it's like they actually believe they have a god-given right to douche it up and that it should be effortless.  

What? No! Invading is PART OF THE GAME, whether you like it or not. If you go human, you are taking a risk of being invaded, period, end of story. You can't have your cake (being able to summon people) and eat it too (not being invaded). Those are two sides of the same coin, like yin and yang. It was purposely created that way.

Or to put it the other way, if you don't want to be invaded, you shouldn't be able to summon people.

Then it's dum, and the designers are dum.


Let me put it this way:
When you invade, you have fun at the expense of others fun.
When you coop, everyone has fun.
When you duel through official channels, everyone has fun.

I'm not even complaining about invaders stopping me from cooping though, usually they don't get the chance.
I'm talking about having to do dum shit like throw myself off a cliff everytime I kindle a bonfire so I'm not harassed.


p.s. - if harassing people in human form is part of the game, so is spawn camping, ripping out your net, and tactically going in human form right next to a boss door so there's literally zero chance of being invaded, since there is no risk or ingame concequence for doing any of those things.

[Raptor85]

You may not enjoy the pvp, but for the vast majority of dark souls players invading and repelling invasions is the most fun part of the game, because let's face it, the AI is absoultely braindead.  Repelling an invader with intent to hunt you down though is a hell of a thrill at times. Darksouls is at it's heart a pvp game, playing in online mode and complaining about pvp is just like back in 1998 when people joined UO and complained that other players were allowed to kill them and it shiould be changed to be just like every other game out there.  Hell, without the pvp dark souls would basicly just be a half-decent devil-may-cry clone with rpg elements

[HöllenKobold]

devil-may-cry clone

[AshfordPride]

devil-may-cry clone

You can call me Chosen Undead the Fire Linker.  Has a nice ring to it don't you think? 

[Dragonmaw]

souls never cry

[Ben_Hurr]

... Hell, without the pvp dark souls would basicly just be a half-decent devil-may-cry clone with rpg elements

So you don't enjoy the game except for the parts where you dick/duel with people? 
Also, "DickWraiths" wouldn't even be a term if a majority of players thought fighting off invaders was the awesomest thing ever.


Anyway on to something constructive:

How to make invasions suck less (and thus have less reason to Alt+F4)
-Invaders should lose something if they lose, but not so much that no one would ever bother invading (since hosts have much at stake)
-The ability to invade/indict should be gotten early on, not hidden as some sort of gone-forever secret
-Match players on actual threat level, not SL
-Make it so having sin actually matters; like having the threat of blue invaders invading in any mp enabled area whether the boss is dead or not
-Having some sort of feedback for indicting invaders, like receiving a "The guilty have paid the price" type message if someone that's invaded you has in turn gotten curbstomped by a blue
-If there are multiple players (ie coop), more invaders should be allowed to enter the same game
-Invader spawn locations should be random, but nearby, so spawn camping is less of an issue and you don't have dum situations where you need to marathon run after a host
-Don't bother letting invaders invade a player that's standing right next to a boss door, it's a waste of the invaders time

[TeeGee]

I must say I don't get it. If you don't like invasions and getting killed, if you think it's not fun -- that's okay. But then why do you play Dark Souls? The whole concept of this game is built around challenge, and invasions are a very significant part of it.

It's one of the unique aspects of the game and it's what makes it fun -- it's hard and you can also get invaded by other players, so there's a constant sense of threat, constant necessity to improvise. The whole covenant system exists so that player have different ways to invade each other, thus keeping the PvP alive. And you don't really lose much when you die either.

Of course, I can get why someone wouldn't like those aspects. But isn't it like playing CoD and then complaining it would be better without all that shooting?

[Ben_Hurr]

I don't recall anything on the games box about "GET KILLED BY ASSHOLES ALL DAY EVERY DAY!" or pvp at all, I play because it's fun despite all the dickwraithing going on.

I'd also pose the reverse question; why do you put up with the rest of the game when all you want is pvp?

[s0]

so how bad is it that i enjoy the singleplayer aspect of the gam?

[Ben_Hurr]

it's unforgivable sinclair

[TeeGee]

I don't recall anything on the games box about "GET KILLED BY ASSHOLES ALL DAY EVERY DAY!" or pvp at all, I play because it's fun despite all the dickwraithing going on.

Didn't it say "Prepare to die" though? And isn't the multiplayer system one of the clear USPs of this game?

Why "assholes"? These are just people who have their fun with the game just as you do. They don't cheat, hack your account, or otherwise intentionally spoil anyone's fun. They are playing by the rules that were put there by the designers and are a significant part of the core experience.

I'd also pose the reverse question; why do you put up with the rest of the game when all you want is pvp?

Because it's great. Great level design, great sense of danger and mystery, cool combat mechanics. And player interactions on top of that. I just enjoy the game as a whole.

I'm also not that interested in PvP. I like it when I get invaded, and I like to be able to hold my own. It gives me that special sense of accomplishment that defeating AI monsters can't ever give, and it's also experience unique to this game. But it's definitely not all I want from Dark Souls. In fact, I think its PvP would be too laggy and focused on lag-stabbing to be considered good gameplay on its own.


In any case, there's no reason to get aggressive. I'm not telling you how to play your game or that your way is somehow inferior. I was just genuinely interested why you liked it despite hating one of its core features. And maybe mildly disgruntled that you are calling people who play the same game "assholes", just because they play it differently than you.

[Raptor85]

How to make invasions suck less (and thus have less reason to Alt+F4)
-Invaders should lose something if they lose, but not so much that no one would ever bother invading (since hosts have much at stake)

Red invaders drop their souls when killed just like the host does, you still have to run back to them.   I agree though that they should go hollow, always thought that was probably a bug due to how all the phantom code is (obviously, due to other bugs) kinda shared.  Plus remember invader only gets 10% of the other person's souls required to level on a kill, host gets 50%, so a pvp kill as host is worth as much as 5 invasions.  Blue invaders don't but they're specific purpose invasions that have other tradeoffs.

-The ability to invade/indict should be gotten early on, not hidden as some sort of gone-forever secret

you get cracked orbs right in firelink shrine when you start, and getting indictments is within the first 5 minutes of the game, right at the bell tower.

-Match players on actual threat level, not SL

this is already how darkmoon covenant works, the more indictments a red gets, the higher level invaderrs can invade DOWN to kill him (get enough and a sl 700 could technically invade a red sl 1)

-Make it so having sin actually matters; like having the threat of blue invaders invading in any mp enabled area whether the boss is dead or not

personally I hate how invading gets turned  off after the boss period, agreed, red summon signs and all invaders should be able to still invade after boss is down. (basicly I wish the entire game was like dark anor londo)

-Having some sort of feedback for indicting invaders, like receiving a "The guilty have paid the price" type message if someone that's invaded you has in turn gotten curbstomped by a blue

would be nice, it's already done with a broadcast message when a gravelorder is killed ("disasters are gone after defeat of the gravelord servant")

-If there are multiple players (ie coop), more invaders should be allowed to enter the same game

Agreed, and not just "allowed" it should allow you to "hold" waiting until your numbers match those of the hosts party if you want

-Invader spawn locations should be random, but nearby, so spawn camping is less of an issue and you don't have dum situations where you need to marathon run after a host

spawn locations are based on where you invade from for red phantoms, which is why it's generally better to go at least partially into the area before invading (though that does mean you have to get back there to pick up your souls if you die).  For cat covenant it's random between near the fog door, by the bridge, or in the middle of the forest, but i do agree, for that it should spawn you anywhere in the forest randomly, not just the set 3 spots, preferrably AWAY from the host so you don't spawn in to 3 people standing around you waiting to instant kill backstab while you can't move.  There should also be a new equip slot for covenant summon rings, so you dont have to ring swap after being spawned.

-Don't bother letting invaders invade a player that's standing right next to a boss door, it's a waste of the invaders time

agreed


A few of my own

* A disconnect while phantoms are in the area should count like using the darksign, you should go hollow, drop your souls, and spawn back at the bonfire
* Invaders should be able to kill monsters, at the cost of being able to be hit by them themselves afterwards.  Sometimes in a fight the host will accidently aggro a mob and get in trouble and it can ruin a good duel, or sometimes there's a mob standing in your way you have trouble getting by to get to the host.
* SL for invading should be weighted by your equipment stats, primarily poise, defense, and damage/speed, making effective SL higher for players with maxxed out equipment
* Estus flasks should not heal phantoms, and all phantoms regardless of type should be able to use their flasks
* You should not be invincible during backstab or riposte animation, plus they should execute a LOT faster
* Even after nerf elemental weapons do far too much damage for not needing any stats to scale, a lightning halberd for instance is fast and does 600 damage a hit with only base dex and str, they should do far less but have half-normal scaling on their stats
* Poise break and speed needs to be looked at on some weapons, particularly the gold tracer which is a light fast blade that can stunlock over 30 poise and the murakumo which is FAR too fast for a weapon that can stunlock over 60 poise.

Nice that you call all pvpers assholes though, because they're just playing the game as intended and having fun...the entire point of the invasion system is to hunt players who have OPTED IN to the invasion system by going human in online mode.  Perhaps you're just playing the wrong game, I found one here that's all about everyone getting along and being nice to each other

[Ben_Hurr]

In any case, there's no reason to get aggressive. I'm not telling you how to play your game or that your way is somehow inferior. I was just genuinely interested why you liked it despite hating one of its core features. And maybe mildly disgruntled that you are calling people who  play the same game "assholes", just because they play it differently.

I apologize, there was no anger directed at either of you guys specifically. ):

And no, all PvPers are not assholes.  I wasn't implying you all go outside and kick puppies in the teeth when you're not playing.
But can we admit that sometimes, redstone invasions can be annoying? 

* A disconnect while phantoms are in the area should count like using the darksign, you should go hollow, drop your souls, and spawn back at the bonfire

I'd only agree with a disconnect penalty if all other mp issues are resolved, really.  You have to target the root cause of people alt+F4ing, and it's mainly because the pvp/invasion experience is really shitty early game.

* SL for invading should be weighted by your equipment stats, primarily poise, defense, and damage/speed, making effective SL higher for players with maxxed out equipment

Yeah, that's exactly what I was suggesting.  Right now upgrades are worth waaaaay more than SLs for a large portion of the game, and it really screws up balance a bit.

I mean come on, there's challenge, but fighting a guy with 99 humanity, +9 armor, and +14 weapons when you have dinky +5 stuff is just as unfun as being ganged up on by summons.

you get cracked orbs right in firelink shrine when you start, and getting indictments is within the first 5 minutes of the game, right at the bell tower.

Well yeah, but you can't get any more after that unless you FAQ guided the darkwraith convent.  And coincidentally, the parish and before is the most troublesome area for troll-type invasions.

I mean, people that try to pick on new players in the burg and parish with maxed out kit are kind of jerks, right?  There's very little threat of resistance, and no chance of Darkmoon retaliation in those cases.

personally I hate how invading gets turned  off after the boss period, agreed, red summon signs and all invaders should be able to still invade after boss is down. (basicly I wish the entire game was like dark anor londo)

Yeah, it also shuts off duel soapstones at exactly the time I'd want them.

I think if the designers were going for the whole 'creeping horror' feeling, with the threat of danger around any corner, they should have made invasions happen anywhere where you're human.  And unannounced.

Now that would get me tip-toeing everywhere haha

* Even after nerf elemental weapons do far too much damage for not needing any stats to scale, a lightning halberd for instance is fast and does 600 damage a hit with only base dex and str, they should do far less but have half-normal scaling on their stats

Hm.  If they nerf them anymore, elementals will be pointless in PvP and PvE.  I don't know how to fix this besides making them scale with something.  Shouldn't these types of weapons exist to take advantage of elemental weaknesses, rather than being a crutch for low-stat characters?

spawn locations are based on where you invade from for red phantoms, which is why it's generally better to go at least partially into the area before invading (though that does mean you have to get back there to pick up your souls if you die).  For cat covenant it's random between near the fog door, by the bridge, or in the middle of the forest, but i do agree, for that it should spawn you anywhere in the forest randomly, not just the set 3 spots, preferrably AWAY from the host so you don't spawn in to 3 people standing around you waiting to instant kill backstab while you can't move.  There should also be a new equip slot for covenant summon rings, so you dont have to ring swap after being spawned.

Well, in my experience where you spawn in an area depends on where the player is, not where you used the orb.  Like in blighttown, sometimes I end up in the walkways, sometimes on the root to the dragon convent, even though I used my orb at the bottom bonfire.

It's also really easy to minimize the walk to your bloodstain by using the stone near a bonfire, which is what I meant about it "costing nothing". 


And is pulling the "my game is too manly for you" card really necessary?

[s0]

Cool your jets guys.

[Dragonmaw]

I don't particularly like fighting invaders that randomly pop into my game while I'm trying to co-op, especially when they are almost always griefers that are either hacking or exploiting to get high-end shit at level piss-all.

This magical realm of invaders being polite and nice is so exceedingly rare to people just playing the game to play it that I wonder what the fuck you are even talking about.

Personally, if you want a more consensual PvP system, the best way would be to simply lock invasions except in areas where the host is human AND they have already beaten the boss. But when I'm just trying to make my way through PvE content and some asshole with triple my health and endurance, wearing boss armor, and wielding a +5 lightning winged spear pops out of the woodwork while I'm SL13 you bet I'm going to disconnect. Fuck him.

The assumption is that you will get matched against human opponents that are dangerous and challenging but plausible, but so far 95% of my invasion fights have been me getting mauled by a griefer. Regardless of location. If that assumption were true, I would have a lot more fun with PvP. But I generally don't feel like fighting a unwinnable fight, especially on netcode as bad as this.

As an aside, I think you should be able to summon white phantoms of any level :V Maybe make the higher and lower level ones take longer to populate in your world. That way high level dudes can help guide players through and low level players can have relatively risk free fun with their big bros.

[Bandages]

Dark Souls II

 

[Blademasterbobo]

you pro invasion guys are acting like 99% of the invaders aren't level 1 griefers using maxed out equipment

[SundownKid]

Then it's dum, and the designers are dum.


Let me put it this way:
When you invade, you have fun at the expense of others fun.
When you coop, everyone has fun.
When you duel through official channels, everyone has fun.

Speak for yourself - I personally think repelling invaders is fun, and so do a lot of other people. It's a rush to fight a mysterious enemy at an inopportune time, especially if you win. And if I don't feel like it, I just don't go human until I get through the area. Just because you think it's not fun doesn't mean it isn't.

That said,
DARK SOULS II PC!!!!!!!!!!
Server-based multiplayer!
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!