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[Happy Shabby Games]

Wandering enemies is bad because it's a random element. Random elements are bad.

imagine yourself saying this at a design meeting for the sequel, then imagine presenting your pokemans argument as proof.

[Dragonmaw]

The difference is more that Black Knights are considered to be bosses of a kind. In games like Spelunky, BioShock, Binding of Isaac, etc. you get to choose how you engage bosses (or boss events in Spelunky) instead of having them randomly aggro on you.

I think wandering enemies are a really good idea, but not Black Knights.

[Ben_Hurr]

Speaking of wandering enemies, npc invasions could be done better.  Having them invade an area randomly, rather than a certain spot in an area with %100 predictablity would be nice.

[J-Snake]

A wandering enemy is a brilliant concept I have investigated since the planning of my Metroid-Rethought. But the game has to have the right format for it. In my case your radar  will detect the enemy when he reaches a certain distance. It means you will have some time to prepare yourself. You can hide and let him pass or you can face the challenge when you feel strong enough. Total randomness is seldom a good idea. There are times where I don't want the enemy to wander around because it can break gameplay. The solution to it is "controlled randomness". That will not only work on paper but also on a digital computer.

[Ben_Hurr]

Yes.

When I think 'wandering black knights', I more imagine walking along a familiar empty corridor and hearing the ominous stomp stomp of a knight, or seeing it ambling somewhere in the distance.

Sort of like you know theres one there, but not specifically where, or what it's packing.

If you just had a black knight randomly sneak up behind you and plant its battle-axe in your skull while you were busy with other enemies it'd be as completely lame as people here are saying it would be.

-----

Also, unannounced invasions.  Good idea, or horribly bad idea?  I know it would put more actual fear in me while playing this, if the invasions were rare enough.

And who would like to see projectiles and spells be easier to aim manually?

[Raptor85]

Speaking of wandering enemies, npc invasions could be done better.  Having them invade an area randomly, rather than a certain spot in an area with %100 predictablity would be nice.

true, but a core mechanic is the player invasions, and that kinda fills the "randomness" void as when playing you never know when or where a player might invade, which adds a whole new level of  tension over the game as you often have to decide "do i run over the rafters now....i haven't been invaded for some time and it could happen any second" or such, also the "gravelording" system when playing online can significantly chage areas for you...first time I got gravelorded I was fighting one of the silver knights in anor londo and this unannounced BP silver knight runs up behind me.....honestly made me jump a little O_x.  I wish when players invade it wasn't announced though, much like gravelording it would make it more tense as you'd never know other than the visual hints that someone is hunting you, so you could miss it if you're not paying enough attention.

One thing i'd love though is if in later games they improved the AI considerably...not just made it harder (parrying and backstabbing AI's is wayyyy too easy in dark souls, making nothing a real threat, enemies should really counter, parry, and do other attacks more so they're not just fodder to cut through) but allow interaction between multiple enemy units and group pulling, patroling.  (AoTA already has a little of this, most of the stone giants in the forest patrol around, and some of the hollows in the main game actually DO patrol around it's just you generally run in and kill them before they really move much).  Done right it shouldn't be random but you should be able to see the patrols ahead of time and decide what to do

[Ben_Hurr]

Yeah I know right, an AI behaviour upgrade in DKS2 would be great.  And yes, backstabbing/parrying them is way too easy, its too easy to do against other players even too.

Enemies that do more than just sit tight until you approach would be nice.

Hm, perhaps instead of having npc invaders at all they could be replaced with a vagrant monster system, where you could be 'invaded' by a powerful unique monster appropriate to the area.  You could make it so this can happen even if hollow, or even if the area boss is dead, so you'd still have something to fear even in previously cleared areas and offline.

[Glyph]

Something like this old From game...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Tower_Abyss

The game world is populated with a total of 68 monsters and non-player characters, who "seem to have regular schedules and activities--that take place independent of [one's] actions--such as burning a bonfire and talking amongst themselves."

[Ben_Hurr]

siggggggggh.

I'm sure Ive mentioned this before, but I hope they improve the character creation in Dark Souls II.
I literally just redid a character that was perfect because their eyelids were clipping with their eyeballs and it was only noticeable ingame.

Like the graphic glitches with female hair, how does this even happen?

[flowerthief]

I hope we appreciate how improved the AI already is over the previous title. The enemies have more attacks, their patterns vary more (is he swinging his sword once? twice? three times?), a few of them do backstab or parry/riposte you, many of them are able to heal themselves, and they almost seem to sense when you want to heal yourself and have a thrusting attack ready.

Another sign of good AI in a game is when enemies have more than one movement speed. Knights will pursue you at a run, but walk slowly when you're near, allowing combat mechanics to play out with precision. (this is even more helpful in a game with lots of shooting since hitting moving targets in a game becomes ironically more difficult as they come into close range; it was a vital innovation in Resident Evil 4)

Also, it's arguably not the same as AI, but particular enemies with scripted behavior can surprise you on your first play, and there is more of that in Dark than in Demon's Souls. (hollow soldiers climbing over railings in Painted World and Undead Burg, snake creatures running up the stairs to guard the door during the scene when you're captured in Duke's Archives, a tree scout temporarily retreating and returning in numbers in Royal Woods)

AI needs to improve further if they really want to blur the distinction between npc and pc--clearly one of From's goals with the series--but I'm having trouble thinking of a game I've played that had better AI than this.

[zalzane]

I'll admit that my rage post about pikachu and snorlax was made while I was hella frustrated over not being able to beat that stupid boss. GFWL ate my save so I had to do it all over again. I dunno why everyone says its easier to kill snorlax second, I would always end up dying before I could kill pikachu. Ended up killing pikachu second, was much easier.

I think black knights wouldnt be an appropriate mob for roaming the world. Rather, knights for a new or existing covenant would be a bit more interesting, as they could be made nonaggressive so it's not like one wandering behind you is such a problem.


My absolute favorite part of the game so far has to be all the small details they inject for coherence. Stuff like there being a big elevator for smough and a small one for ornstein, the snake men fleeing the slugs in duke's archive, the vendors making witty remarks when you buy certain items; all that stuff really ties together well to make the game world profound.

AI needs to improve further if they really want to blur the distinction between npc and pc--clearly one of From's goals with the series--but I'm having trouble thinking of a game I've played that had better AI than this.

I'll admit - the first time I got invaded by Kirk in the depths, I thought that was a real player. I even bragged about it to a friend, who was nice enough to let me enjoy my minute of glory before letting me know it was an NPC invasion.

[Ben_Hurr]

It took me this long to realize you were talking about Ornstein and Smough.  Oh lol.



"Stocking up on indictments? HOWWW HONORABLE OF YOU, HA HA HA HAAAAAA"

[flowerthief]

I'll admit - the first time I got invaded by Kirk in the depths, I thought that was a real player. I even bragged about it to a friend, who was nice enough to let me enjoy my minute of glory before letting me know it was an NPC invasion.

Oh I think everybody does. Up to that point all one's experience with being invaded has been by players, so why wouldn't one be fooled?

I'm all for npc invasions happening at random times and places in the next title. If sudden and unpredictable player invasions are fair game, sudden and unpredictable npc invasions should be, too.

[Ben_Hurr]

I wonder, would the game's weight system be more interesting if you couldn't just level up to carry more?   

[J-Snake]

Played it through. All the way I asked myself whether there is a human-sized boss because the rest of them are ridiculously big, often to gameplay-disadvantage. And funnily enough the last boss was small.

All in all I can say the artistic flow and level design clouds the heavy flaws of the game. The leveling system is not well thought out and the gameplay doesn't offer much variety (like mentioned), the low variety of physical combat makes it boring after a while. I also wish the regular enemies would be more interesting overall. Also the fact that bosses  are large often takes a significant amount of gameplay-depth away. 

Another area is the technical implementation of the things. I can see on several occasions that the design on paper doesn't consider gameplay-details when it comes to actual realisation on a digital machine.

Compared to other aaa-games it is still outstanding. It is just that I wouldn't release a game in that state.

[Ben_Hurr]

How does the melee combat have low variety J-Snake?
What would it look like if you made this instead? 

I agree that the leveling system is almost superfluous because of the upgrade system, and probably could've been replaced with something simpler if not removed entirely.

[J-Snake]

Fighting games are in my blood so I can give some competent feedback to combat-systems. But there are ways to provide significantly more interesting combat just by making few things right. In particular I want to mention the following:

Evade-and-Counter concepts would be a fine add, also ducking high attacks etc but I am not even asking for that. The first thing I would do is providing backstepping the use it deserves. But an even better concept is to make backstepping a part of a "jump-evade-system" if you have light armor, that also involves strafe-jumps. With an enhanced mobility-set you can offer challenges which have to be approached and exploited from diverse angles instead of starting from the same line and progressing to the same attacks/actions all over again. It means the combat system can be richer with more repercussions to it.  Right now all you have to master is the stamina bar (which is a good concept but it doesn't suffice). If done like that a fair amount of challange will always remain and not vanish through experience.

[Glyph]

You seriously need to try PvP, absolutely none of the things you've said apply there. You're right as far as PvE is concerned, so if that's all you care about then fine (though you started off by calling DkS a 'fighting game'), but criticizing a system you're only beginning to understand the implications of when two players are pitted against each other is a different thing. Everything you mentioned has a viable application to PvP; there are such things as counter hits in the game (not parries, actual counter hits); I could go on.

[Ben_Hurr]

Yes things are different in PvP, but it still doesn't change the fact that most of those mechanics aren't exploited to their fullest in singleplayer when they should be.

And unless you're part of a PvP fightclub, are a dedicated invader, or just hanging around an area for invasions, 90% of your time will be spent fighting monsters rather than other players.  

[Glyph]

No, I totally agree that most of the mechanics aren't exploited fully. Though I do spent a lot of time doing PvP. But still, there is a reason for a lot of the stuff, like the leveling system and why it is the way it is.