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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesDark Souls and Bloodborne
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TeeGee
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« Reply #1580 on: January 22, 2013, 01:05:30 AM »

Fighting games are in my blood so I can give some competent feedback to combat-systems.

So how many fighting games have you made?  Who, Me?
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« Reply #1581 on: January 22, 2013, 01:44:55 AM »

It would have been cool if it had more depth to the fighting, but at the same time, it seems wrong to add more depth because the enemies are just too large to really do precise battling with them. In PVP, where you have two equally sized knights battling it out, sure it would make sense - but if you're fighting Seath the dragon, why would you need all these moves when the main challenge is dodging his attacks and getting in a hit when you can? The simplicity in combat lets you focus on navigating the environment, not mastering combos.
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« Reply #1582 on: January 22, 2013, 03:14:25 AM »

dork soles 2 should be an abstract puzzle game imo
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« Reply #1583 on: January 22, 2013, 04:35:28 AM »

Fighting games are in my blood so I can give some competent feedback to combat-systems. But there are ways to provide significantly more interesting combat just by making few things right. In particular I want to mention the following:

Evade-and-Counter concepts would be a fine add, also ducking high attacks etc but I am not even asking for that. The first thing I would do is providing backstepping the use it deserves. But an even better concept is to make backstepping a part of a "jump-evade-system" if you have light armor, that also involves strafe-jumps. With an enhanced mobility-set you can offer challenges which have to be approached and exploited from diverse angles instead of starting from the same line and progressing to the same attacks/actions all over again. It means the combat system can be richer with more repercussions to it.  Right now all you have to master is the stamina bar (which is a good concept but it doesn't suffice). If done like that a fair amount of challange will always remain and not vanish through experience.


Should we assume you tried different style of character, weapons and combat? Because it looks a lot like you didn't.
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« Reply #1584 on: January 22, 2013, 07:11:39 AM »

dark souls not having evade and counter, backstep useless..? sure we played the same game?

Personally it sounds like you just haven't really figured out the combat yet, because dark souls is a REALLY evade and counter heavy game, and backstepping attacks is a core to both PVE and PVP.  A lot of new players make the mistake of treating it as a "block everything, tank hits" game and instead of mastering the combat spend hours and hours extra grinding levels until they can beat the bosses.  Granted that can work for high vit/heavy armor builds early in the game (PVE only) but you're in for a boring long grind with a build like that.

There actually ARE attack combos in dark souls btw, how your next attack be strong or light slashes/hits depends on the previous action for most weapons, and many weapons change how they cut based on the number of slashes in a row as well, that's why when you watch high level pvp you don't see much blocking (until the instant the weapon would hit) or "button mashing", and of course those change as well when you swap to holding it in one hand or two (the moveset for most weapons is completely different 1h to 2h, so you often swap during combat)
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« Reply #1585 on: January 22, 2013, 09:35:13 AM »

I'm not crazy about the oversized bosses myself. You spend all this time underneath their legs where targeting is messy and it's not always clear who is able to hit who.

But I rather like the blend of action combat and leveling. In fact, I'd say that it's a crucial ingredient in the game's success, since player skill and character skill both have their appeal. It presents some conflicting goals from the standpoint of PvP though, and they came up with interesting compromises there.
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« Reply #1586 on: January 22, 2013, 11:46:15 AM »

I'm quite glad this game doesn't have Dynasty Warrior type combos in them, I can't go back to playing games that do that anymore.  It just feels lame.

I'm not sure where all this backstepping pride is coming from.  I've never encountered a situation where I needed it, nor where it would've made anything easier.  It just doesn't have enough range, and no invincibility frames.
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« Reply #1587 on: January 22, 2013, 11:50:55 AM »

...


Should we assume you tried different style of character, weapons and combat? Because it looks a lot like you didn't.

May I add:
After playing a bit thinking about this, it seems to me that you might also have missed a lot of NPC that are not friendly, which you encounter only on specific events or while being human (not hollowed) at specific places. They are more or less considered like mini bosses.
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« Reply #1588 on: January 22, 2013, 11:51:58 AM »

There actually ARE attack combos in dark souls btw, how your next attack be strong or light slashes/hits depends on the previous action for most weapons, and many weapons change how they cut based on the number of slashes in a row as well
There is no argument. The point is that there is no repercussions to them except for the stamina management. It is not like you can block a slow attack and counter with a fast one. The game is too slow for that. Backstepping is also too slow to put to any use. If die hard fans want to provide an argument they have to show me a pro match.
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« Reply #1589 on: January 22, 2013, 11:57:51 AM »

After playing a bit thinking about this, it seems to me that you might also have missed a lot of NPC that are not friendly, which you encounter only on specific events or while being human (not hollowed) at specific places. They are more or less considered like mini bosses.
I killed the first one sitting at firelink right at the beginning, just so for fun. And it was a one dimensional fight.
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« Reply #1590 on: January 22, 2013, 12:01:21 PM »

After playing a bit thinking about this, it seems to me that you might also have missed a lot of NPC that are not friendly, which you encounter only on specific events or while being human (not hollowed) at specific places. They are more or less considered like mini bosses.
I killed the first one sitting at firelink right at the beginning, just so for fun. And it was a one dimensional fight.

He's talking about the pre-planned "invasions" that the game doles out when you're human. Those tend to be pretty interesting fights. Also that guy you fought was an intentional pushover.
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« Reply #1591 on: January 22, 2013, 12:09:25 PM »

Sounds cool. May be I will check that out. The first guy is intended to be hard, indicated by the number of hits you need to do in order to make him go mad. It is still a fight with not more depth than in Risen, and that is saying a lot. And thus you can win it in a boring way.

I still have yet to see the use in backstepping.
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« Reply #1592 on: January 22, 2013, 12:10:07 PM »

Those guys aren't much harder than the crestfallen guy though. o_0
Granted, at least they don't dive off of cliffs.
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« Reply #1593 on: January 22, 2013, 12:12:47 PM »

dark souls isn't a fighting game though
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« Reply #1594 on: January 22, 2013, 12:15:41 PM »

The PvP circle seems to think it is.  Tongue



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Speaking of PvP, I find it unusual that running around the catacombs and Anor Londo as a nubile SL19 pyromancer hasn't netted people trying to gank me.  My Word!
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« Reply #1595 on: January 22, 2013, 12:38:07 PM »

I'm quite glad this game doesn't have Dynasty Warrior type combos in them, I can't go back to playing games that do that anymore.  It just feels lame.
yes
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« Reply #1596 on: January 22, 2013, 01:37:47 PM »

Sounds cool. May be I will check that out. The first guy is intended to be hard, indicated by the number of hits you need to do in order to make him go mad. It is still a fight with not more depth than in Risen, and that is saying a lot. And thus you can win it in a boring way.

I still have yet to see the use in backstepping.

god youre a fucking idiot

can you people just fucking ignore him so he'll leave, he doesn't know wtf he's talking about. he's a goddamn moron. he thinks he's some game design guru that can dispense invaluable advice on games he hasn't even played for more than 10 minutes. what dark souls really needs is an extra pair of shoulder buttons to expand the moveset of the digital computer non-paper game.
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« Reply #1597 on: January 22, 2013, 02:07:18 PM »

dark souls isn't a fighting game though

Yes, it's more a "move forward and learn or just die recursively" game. Fighting is just part of it. Also, magic(s) is another dimention that make it like a kind of meta game of surviving. I play a character that don't use magic at all and that makes me incredibly bad when I try a magic oriented character. That's interesting that the game is still balanced for learning while letting you use widely different techniques.
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« Reply #1598 on: January 22, 2013, 02:23:49 PM »

what dark souls really needs is a gravity and/or portal gun as well as a humorous ending song.
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« Reply #1599 on: January 22, 2013, 02:47:35 PM »

what dark souls really needs is an extra pair of shoulder buttons to expand the moveset of the digital computer non-paper game.
I don't necessarily imply that. It is about doing more with the same. If a basic, already existing, element is not used to its potential it is a flaw. I don't know how you are playing games but I want to dive into them.
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