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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesDark Souls and Bloodborne
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moi
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« Reply #1900 on: April 22, 2013, 05:51:04 PM »

chess is dumb
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J-Snake
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« Reply #1901 on: April 22, 2013, 06:18:32 PM »

By sandbox I mean the amount of underlying mechanics, entities and space. Puzzle is a certain composition of them into the intended challenge.

And trust me, if your game has "potentially innumerable ways of approaching a problem" then it for sure has "unintended exploits" by definition.
No, this is a wrong conclusion since unintended exploits can be categorized. For example I can say the intended actions are A,B, and C the player has to execute in any case, how he approaches them is left to his imagination. So he still has potentially innumerable ways of approaching the problem but my specification is still preserved.

In other words my clean set of rules/mechanics is less prone to offer a cheap exploit in a hard level and offers those "wtf" moments all the time aswell. Where DK has a lot of cheap exploits. It is because in this "reduced" system I can exactly plan out and follow the consequences, down to every single game-frame. This property is what enables you to dive deep into a system.

If you look at it, DK already tends to apply a "reduced" distinct set of mechanics at some points. For example you have only 3 different stages in mobility, it is not gradual.
All good but there is a significant amount that needs work. For example why is the last boss the only one in human-size? If the game is supposed to offer interesting closed combat it should offer more of those instead of monsters being 10 times your size, which you can often just outrun with mobility and exploit in the same way. May be some find that already satisfying but I find the constant repetition-offer of this concept dull.
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nekokoneko
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« Reply #1902 on: April 22, 2013, 09:48:55 PM »

What a bore.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #1903 on: April 23, 2013, 12:03:56 PM »

But anyway, the "noise" in the combat of Dark Souls is a variety of interesting monsters, items, and environments. So yes, I'd say "noise" is fantastic in this case.
That is not my definition of noise, that is intended variety and depth. Just to clarify.
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #1904 on: April 23, 2013, 04:22:22 PM »

j-snake sure is using a lot of buzzwords without a whole lot of meaning
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« Reply #1905 on: April 23, 2013, 08:32:23 PM »

words are hard *slams fist down on table* WORDS ARE HARD
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baconman
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« Reply #1906 on: April 24, 2013, 07:35:13 AM »

By sandbox I mean the amount of underlying mechanics, entities and space. Puzzle is a certain composition of them into the intended challenge.

And trust me, if your game has "potentially innumerable ways of approaching a problem" then it for sure has "unintended exploits" by definition.
No, this is a wrong conclusion since unintended exploits can be categorized. For example I can say the intended actions are A,B, and C the player has to execute in any case, how he approaches them is left to his imagination. So he still has potentially innumerable ways of approaching the problem but my specification is still preserved.

Uhh, Snake... Derek knows what he's talking about here. You don't just pull as Spelunky and an Aquaria out of your butt and not learn these sorts of things. And if TrapThem is every bit as flexible and nondescript as it sounds like you're aiming for, then not only is "unintended exploits" a factor, it almost sounds like the entire POINT of your game.

Ask any Super Metroid speedrunner why they love Super Metroid.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #1907 on: April 24, 2013, 08:44:53 AM »

Derek knows what he's talking about here. You don't just pull as Spelunky and an Aquaria out of your butt and not learn these sorts of things.
I don't pull TrapThem out of my ass either. In certain systems without noise intended concepts can be categorized and forced. If you know a basic property which a class of infinite amount of different approaches have in common (a property of an approach can be an abstract condition like " you need to destroy at least one block") then you already know all of those approaches cannot contribute to an abuse/work-around of your concept if it requires no destruction in order to work. It means that you don't have to check an infinite amount of possible ways (which is not possible)to ensure they will work or not if you force appropriate conditions. I can still give TrapThem 10 different people to play and all of them will play and solve the more open levels amazingly different. But none of them will find a cheap solution to a challenging level.
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« Reply #1908 on: April 24, 2013, 08:52:46 AM »

J-Snake, I think TrapThem looks cool (I think you approached me for art on it at one point months ago, and it already looked like a really fun game back then), but I'm not sure your wisdom designing it makes you a universal authority on realtime games. Dark Souls is a VERY different kind of game.

There are a LOT of ephemeral, unrelated elements that form together to make a game fun, or engaging, or challenging, or interesting -- Dark Souls has a lot of them, and it resonates very strongly with a VERY big audience, many of whom are hardcore gamers and educated game designers.

If you don't see what all the fuss is about, maybe you should listen to why all of these other people (some of whom know less about game design than you, but many of whom know as much or more) like it so much, and try to use that to broaden your understanding, instead of rejecting it out of hand?

I love deterministic, sharp, controlled games, like Dustforce, but I also love sloppy, beautiful, exciting games like Dark Souls -- do you really think a 'tight' game is always better than one that has some more mechanical wiggle room?
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J-Snake
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« Reply #1909 on: April 24, 2013, 09:00:30 AM »

I am just saying that Derek's statement cannot be generalized. He claimed there is no way to avoid cheap exploits in free systems. I am not saying it is easy but it is not true for every system/game.

But you are right, I am aware I can learn a lot from others. I also learned something from Dark Souls.
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baconman
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« Reply #1910 on: April 24, 2013, 08:38:44 PM »

But none of them will find a cheap solution to a challenging level.

Challenge accepted. Smiley
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« Reply #1911 on: April 26, 2013, 08:23:00 AM »

They're unavoidable because we don't know how to make a perfect sandbox yet.

So I think the question in the end is whether you're willing to pay the price or not. Would you take a top down approach of crafting/scripting everything, or give more importance to emergent systems that create experiences.

You can drop magma on anything in Dwarf Fortress, I don't think it's a bad game at all.

That's because when the player discovers that 'exploit', I think it's more rewarding than any gold start, trophy, ribbon or achievement you'll ever throw at them.

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« Reply #1912 on: April 27, 2013, 01:52:04 PM »

Don't get me wrong, J-Snake is a kook,
but I'm starting to get really tired of how whenever anyone, anywhere, criticizes this game and it's predecessor in any way they get shut-down and insulted no matter how legit their criticism is.
(and probably told to go play CoD, or whatever is deemed 'super-casual-scum-easy' by the D*S crowd today)

Seriously stop it, this is not some sacred relic of the church of gaming that cannot be questioned.  Lips Sealed

It's unproductive, and prevents us from talking about what this game got right and wrong as a whole.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 01:58:21 PM by Ben_Hurr » Logged
gimymblert
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« Reply #1913 on: April 27, 2013, 02:13:24 PM »

Ypu don't understand zelda is dead, we need something
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« Reply #1914 on: April 27, 2013, 02:36:10 PM »

i like d* souls more than most zeldas if ur gonna make that comparison

what ben hurr is saying is fair enough and im trying to rein in my fanboy impulses a bit and make it clear that im only speaking for myself.

that said, to me most of the negative points i've heard are either subjectively wrong (level of punishment, presence of exploits ruining the games) or they're just kinda insignificant compared to the massive enjoyment i got out of d* souls (generally any criticisms re: lack of polish).

the thing tho is, if i really like the good parts of a game i'm willing to endure a lot of bad shit, and the souls games don't even have a lot of that by my standards. i mean, i like dwarf fortress and stalker and gams like that, which are janky on a level d* souls can't even touch with a 50 foot pole. i can definitely understand if people are put off by the games' faults tho.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 03:50:53 PM by C.A. Sinner » Logged
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« Reply #1915 on: April 27, 2013, 02:42:27 PM »

yeah i think the thing is that people have a lot of different preferences so with a game like dark souls that hits a lot of different points in varying qualities, preferences are going to clash
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Ben_Hurr
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« Reply #1916 on: April 27, 2013, 03:33:17 PM »

i like d* souls more than most zeldas if ur gonna make that comparison

what ben hurr is saying is fair enough and im trying to rein in my fanboy impulses a bit and make it clear that im only speaking for myself.

that said, to me most of the negative points i've heard are either subjectively wrong (level of punishment, presence of exploits being ruining the games) or they're just kinda insignificant compared to the massive enjoyment i got out of d* souls (generally any criticisms re: lack of polish).

the thing tho is, if i really like the good parts of a game i'm willing to endure a lot of bad shit, and the souls games don't even have a lot of that by my standards. i mean, i like dwarf fortress and stalker and gams like that, which are janky on a level d* souls can't even touch with a 50 foot pole. i can definitely understand if people are put off by the games' faults tho.
Oh thank goodness someone gets it. Tears of Joy
And may god rest Zelda's soul.

But okay, the only thing I can kinda get behind from J-Snake is how earlier he mentioned that most of the games encounteres are set up like puzzles; because they are.

Take the Catacombs for example.
Depending on when and how you approach the place it can be excruciating.  The main problem is that the skeletons are tough and fast, and resurrect quickly if their necromancer masters are still alive, so chances are if you try to use the same approach you've been using for the rest of the game you'll be swamped and killed mercilessly over and over.  So the puzzle is how to get through this despite enemies being lethal and not staying dead... and the game provides a surprising amount of options to you if you pay attention.

The straight-forward approach is to use any weapon with a divine property to ignore the skeletons regeneration in the first place.  The game provides this clue in quite a few places.

You can be sneaky, and snipe most of the necromancers with regular/poison/magic projectiles, removing the skeletons regeneration.

You can be Solid Snake and slip by them; most of the skeletons seem to have trouble detecting you with both the Ring of Fog and Slumbering Dragoncrest Rings on, or using their equivalent spells.

You can also circumvent the skeletons regeneration directly without divine weapons; regeneration does no good if you kick or smash the them into places they can't get you, like in the many pits and cliffs throughout the area.  It takes awhile to do, though.

Or you can try just skipping most of the level, since you can jump down to the 2nd bonfire after fighting to the first flippable bridge, and from there jump from the 2nd flippable bridge to the bottom.

Or, the most easy approach, simply come back when you're so powerful you can simply overpower the skeletons and kill all the necromancers that way.  Like with pyromancy.

And that is just one area, and only the strategies I've personally tried.  There is probably more ways to do it!

yeah i think the thing is that people have a lot of different preferences so with a game like dark souls that hits a lot of different points in varying qualities, preferences are going to clash
Yeah I know, and it seems like when alot of D*s fans clash things get ugly really hard and really fast.

I can only feel bad for the developers, because no matter what they do in terms of a sequel or patches they're practically guaranteed to have a ton of fans jump down their throats. Sad
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gimymblert
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« Reply #1917 on: April 27, 2013, 04:19:50 PM »

Yeah zelda enemy use to be spatial puzzle:
Remember that time where you have a hammer trying to flip enemy close to you, some others close in and in panic you flip them to see that the former flip back? That was zelda, now you have an awesome complex system that:

1. wait for the opening to strike (you even have signal in wind waker) keep your shield up!
2. use the correct item (variant is strike them after wise)
3. use slash in correct direction (way to waste motion control)

Also remember when all items had a special effect to discover? (the powder on the skull thingy turn them into faery, freeze then smash to have mana potion, etc). No we don't have that anymore (oot did it last).

Zelda has become a match 2 (item, target) puzzle game.
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« Reply #1918 on: April 27, 2013, 04:50:48 PM »

Yeah I know, the enemy 'puzzles' in later zeldas are really lame and limited.

SHOOT HOOKSHOT AT BOSS AFTER IS SMASHES INTO WALL
BOSS IS STUNNED, HIT EXPOSED WEAKPOINT UNTIL BOSS RECOVERS (max 3 hits usually)
REPEAT UNTIL DEAD (usually repeat 3 times)

It's really bloody stale man.

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« Reply #1919 on: April 27, 2013, 04:53:09 PM »

Quote
Also remember when all items had a special effect to discover? (the powder on the skull thingy turn them into faery, freeze then smash to have mana potion, etc). No we don't have that anymore (oot did it last).
ya, also the newer zeldas are littered with items that are completely useless outside of a specific type of puzzle (spinning top thing in TP for instance)
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