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« Reply #2020 on: May 16, 2013, 12:05:51 PM »

it doesn't cure curses, only reduces curse buildup. also you can buy purging stones from either the waterway merchant or oswald.
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« Reply #2021 on: May 16, 2013, 10:35:14 PM »

I thought resist curse requires a point of liquid humanity?

...

http://darksouls.wikidot.com/resist-curse

okay now I'm confused
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« Reply #2022 on: May 16, 2013, 10:45:23 PM »

nope it's just the wikidot wiki that says it cures curses for some reason. the other 2 (much better) wikis state the correct function. if it really did cure curses, why would it even have multiple castings? and why would it be so unpopular seeing as it'd basically remove the need to ever buy purging stones?
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« Reply #2023 on: May 16, 2013, 11:19:16 PM »

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We all love Dark Soul's addictive gameplay, the cool bosses and the unforgiving mechanics. But there is something more that keeps us coming back, and has spawned countless discussions on lore: The atmosphere, as in design of the world, backstory, behaviour of NPCs etc. To me, at least, DS seemed like one of these waking dreams (where you're almost awake and only realise you are sleeping because things are subtly, but definitely, off). Some examples of what I mean:

    Every NPC behaves as if he has some form of mental damage. "Kekeke", "I am simply crestfallen", "if only I could be so grossly incandescent!", "and so the lass weeps in solitude...". NO-ONE speaks like this. If you combine that with the fake-old English, you pretty much have psycho horror dialogue (think "Jacob's ladder" or similar).
    Lordran (and Londo) consist mainly of battlements and spires. Look around at Firelink Shrine. You will see circle-segment battlements stretch out half to the horizon. IN FRONT of the Undead Parish walls. Which are IN FRONT of the Anor Londo walls. Defending against what or whom? Where are the markets? Where are the "normal" houses (except for like ONE place in Undead Burgh)? Before the Undead Curse, did Anor Londo lose like 100 citizens each day to treacherous (and pointless) walkways? There is no rhyme or reason to ANY of the architecture, except that (again dreamlike) it evokes middle-aged themes without ACTUALLY resembling it. It's like somebody turned a castle alive, and told it to mutate.
    There is no redemption in the story. No-one is "good", or actually "evil" for that matter. Yes, you could ARGUE that invaders are evil, but are they really? After all, they obey a God/ primordial serpent (Nito/ Kaathe) just as the Sunbros obey Gwyn. Who is arguably not a good character in the story. And is it really "evil" to end Gwyndolin's charade? Better to serve him or the mirage of his sister? Seldom has there been a game with such a lack of "moral compass" to allow you to be "bad guy" or "good guy". In Dark Souls, you just... are. You server some or no masters, you have your own agenda, but nothing you do is inherently "good". This is also exemplified by the game killing off seeminlgy "good" characters with wild abandon. The nice "guv'nor" Pyromancer has to die WHY? Not enough that that chick got stuck in the tombs, she also gets KILLED afterwards? The likely son of Gwyn seeks his own "sun", finds a parasite, goes ape and you have to KILL him after all your history? WTF? It seems that the age-old formula that good behaviour by NPCs is usually rewarded with their life (unless you need drama) is completely inverted. The ruthless and cruel survive (unless you decide to kill them), there is no justice for anyone in the story.

So why does DS have this unique feel and take on the genre? Because the authors of the game are not Christian (in the cultural sense, not talking about faith here).
"WHAT" I hear you say, dear reader, "does RELIGION have to do with this?". Well, everything really, at least if we're talking about the genre of fantasy (which DS arguably belongs to). First let's take a step back and look at the history of modern fantasy, using two examples: LOTR, and Michael Moorcock's "Elric of Melnibone" / eternal champion (kudos if you know the last). We will additionally look at one contemporary game that is in many ways the polar opposite of DS, namely "Skyrim".
LOTR, as is quite apparent, is a highly Christian text (to the point of retelling a version of the Christian creation myth in the Simarillion, including fallen angels, fallible mortals, sin, and redemption). There is never a shred of doubt who the "good" and who the "bad" guys are, and though some characters are "gray" (like Gollum) on the whole we know whom to root for. This isn't even necessarily Tolkien rooting for Christianity, it is just a feature of most European literature up to some point- even if it tackled tricky (earthly) morale, the dichotomy (notice the word) between light and dark, good and evil, righteous and depraved can be found in most works (compare e.g. Goethe's "Faust" which, while being modern in the way that it treats its characters' sensibilities, is framed by a bet between God and Satan). Whether we acknowledge it or not, this way of thinking is so deeply ingrained in our culture that films which let the "bad" guy win are usually quite a hard sell (unless the guy isn't really "bad", see Leon the Professional or even Captain Malcolm Reynolds). Western audiences essentially like morality tales.
"Hold on", you will say, "what about the D&D alignment bit (lawful vs. chaotic, good vs. evil)?". And you would be right, since the whole point of the alignment system is to avoid "morality-tale" type of stories, by letting chaos fight order (first done by the remarkable Michael Moorcock with his deliberate anti-hero Elric- who is weak, ugly, cowardish, only looking for his own gain, and as a recurring theme sacrificing everyone he loves to his soul-devouring sword). Yet as so often when you try to rebel against something long-ingrained, you can see the original in the caricature, and so Elric is so over-the-top despicable that the intent becomes quite clear. Additionally, Moorcock's successors were not as radical: Gary Gygax DID introduce chaos vs. order, but DID keep good vs. evil (giving you nine possible alignments), which is arguably a mix between the rigidly Christian LOTR and the rigidly anti-Christian Elric.
A good example for this mix would be the game "Skyrim": Yes, there is a great deal of ambiguity (rebels vs. imperials), but NO-ONE doubts that that one dragon is an asshole, that some Daedra are more good than others (Kyne vs. Molag Baal) etc. So the most contemporary tack of fantasy is this mixture (to a degree you find the same mix of ambiguity vs. straight-up morality tale in e.g. "Game of Thrones").
Enter FROM software, and its Japanese developers. Japan, apart from some attempts by the Portugese, has never been christianized, and historically prevailing ideologies were a version of Confucianism (obedience to lord, village and family, in that order) and Shinto (Japanese ghost world, compare e.g. ghosts from "The Ring" or "The Grudge"- unstoppable, amoral killing machines that actually SUCCEED.). Neither system has any hints of "divine justice" or "divine moral" (you would not expect the lord you serve to be of high moral integrity, as the "god king" doctrine in Europe implied)- you WOULD obey a cruel order, because obedience is most important. On the other hand, you couldn't care less about people's sexual activities, because there is no divine taboo on that, either. It follows that in many tales, it is not the "morally good" heroes that end up winning, but those heroes that display courage and initiative (satisfying a desire not for justice to win, but for someone to break free from the bonds of servitude and do as they please- compare to Kung Fu heroes in China, which fulfil the same function). It also follows that the "support characters" are not neatly stackable into "good" vs "evil", but are just that- characters, with their own agendas, and their own fate.
Now imagine coming from Japan in your youth (as the author of DS did at one point), and travelling to Europe, and seeing all these castles and battlements, and then seeing your first Christian cathedral (which, arguably, are among the most beautiful and awe-inspiring structures ever built), and then letting your fantasy run wild and populating these long-empty places with heroes of your imagination. Dark Souls is the result:
On one hand, "faith" plays a huge role in the game, but not as a morality concept- it is merely a tit-for-tat with a (very human) god, as faith gives you direct power, and serving your god's selfish needs is immediately and materially rewarded. This is much more akin to Shinto (where you would appeal to ancestors for help, or where you might be the plaything of powerful spirits) than of monotheism- yet they still designed everything in DS to invoke a WESTERN style church (including the over-the-top "pardoner", but also the architecture, the clothes, the poses people assume). And then consider the DS creation myth- again, superficially it reads like the usual good vs. evil plot, but not so: Dragons aren't evil in DS, they just represent stasis (vs. fire, which represents change). DS merely tells of ages ending and new ages starting, but no judgement is passed here whether Gwyn and his followers were moral to destroy the dragons. Add to this the very very Japanese NPCs (as in, they generally fill their assigned role with a few exceptions, but still grumble/ are sarcastic about their lot while being utterly fatalistic in accepting that they cannot change it- hence the dark humour), and you begin to understand that DS is, essentially, Western (Christian) Fantasy Fanfiction from a Japanese perspective. It LOOKS like a Western fantasy product, it PLAYS like it, but it ISN'T Western fantasy (hence the eery feeling). All the parts are there, but due to the different cultural background, the authors really do not understand the Western Christian good-vs-evil paradigm sufficiently to turn out a Skyrim-esque Dark Souls.
In fact, playing Dark Souls as a European is probably very, very close to watching "The Last Samurai" as a Japanese. It has the looks, it TRIES to get at Japanese mentality, but it's just not quite there.
In a way, having read much fantasy I believe DS is a beautiful compliment to the genre, and it usually takes someone from the outside looking in to what you're doing for you to truly understand yourself through that outside perspective- much of what makes "Western" fantasy really only occured to me when I was trying to put a finger on why the DS world feels so, well, odd.
If I had any wish, then it would be that someone absolutely prevents FROM from reading this statement, or traveling to Europe again, or in fact doing ANYTHING to rob the creators of their wonderful and quirky view of fantasy- I feel that by being entirely oblivious to the whole Christian angle, this game achieves what Michael Moorcock set out to do with his "Elric"- convincing post-Christian fantasy in a beautiful, surreal, and forever mysterious world.
TL;DR: DS is Western-Christian Fantasy fanfiction from a Japanese Shinto perspective. ...Oh just read the text.
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« Reply #2024 on: May 16, 2013, 11:59:32 PM »

I think that essay is pretty spot-on, and I got the feeling that the world of Dark Souls really rewards power over morality (as the only way for the gods to survive is to seek as much power as possible, e.g. keep the fire going as long as possible). The whole thing is basically a power grab by you or the serpents, rather than a fight against evil.
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« Reply #2025 on: May 17, 2013, 12:05:44 AM »

source: http://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls/comments/1egbqg/an_explanation_for_dark_souls_addictively_off/
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« Reply #2026 on: May 17, 2013, 12:12:47 AM »

dark souls reminds me of a bit of django* (the 1966 movie, not django unchained). amoral, set in a harsh, isolated place, characters seem alienated and not entirely sane and it's pervaded by a kind of mild surrealism where everything is slightly "off" without being outright "weird" or "horror" or whatever.

incidentally django was also an italian take on american mythology via kurosawa's yojimbo (which btw was influenced by westerns).


*most of this shit also applies to fistful of dollars but django is a bit more strange.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 12:20:56 AM by C.A. Sinner » Logged
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« Reply #2027 on: May 17, 2013, 12:38:52 AM »

This essay is very interesting.


Juste a quirk: the part about the way the city is made is actually uncorrect as I think it is level-design + hardware and time limitations that makes almost impossible to make a city that have places that feels like a full city. It's already incredible that they managed to make a feel of history in the architecture without making the level design dumb.


Also, thanks guys for the info on curse, my friend managed to uncurse without dying (he didn't have access to purge stone and was in ash lake without a way of teleporting... so that was not easy task).
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« Reply #2028 on: May 17, 2013, 05:21:44 AM »

I'd rather the locations flow together well and be consistently styled and have a logical progression (which they do) than have battlements be facing the 'right' way

It's also a crumbling horrible place of the increasingly damned so maybe that's supposed to come across in the architecture
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« Reply #2029 on: May 17, 2013, 09:16:46 AM »

nope it's just the wikidot wiki that says it cures curses for some reason. the other 2 (much better) wikis state the correct function. if it really did cure curses, why would it even have multiple castings? and why would it be so unpopular seeing as it'd basically remove the need to ever buy purging stones?

Wow, looks like FROM didn't finish this spells implementation.  What is the point of a spell that empties curse buildup when it runs out so fast anyway?

At least cure poison cures poison AND toxic as compensation?
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« Reply #2030 on: May 17, 2013, 09:26:40 AM »


Wow, looks like FROM didn't finish this spells implementation.  What is the point of a spell that empties curse buildup when it runs out so fast anyway?

At least cure poison cures poison AND toxic as compensation?

I agree that this spell is not useful at all.


I'm happy I never got cursed. I guess big armors help.
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« Reply #2031 on: May 17, 2013, 11:49:12 AM »

All that talk about fall damage reminds me...

I enjoyed The Great Hollow. Smiley

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« Reply #2032 on: May 21, 2013, 04:23:22 AM »



Source: https://plus.google.com/103978694457030937705/posts/CQYUFuSR4s8
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« Reply #2033 on: May 21, 2013, 10:38:48 AM »

>Solaire doing "Well! What is it?"
What
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« Reply #2034 on: May 22, 2013, 11:52:55 AM »

so this is really off-topic, but I have seen a lot of videos for this game and I have a lot of questions about how the combat works. I would love to play it, but have no access to anything that can actually run the game. So would anyone be up for answering a multitude of combat related questions for me?
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« Reply #2035 on: May 22, 2013, 02:19:28 PM »

That will be hard. We not all agree on combat specificities of the game and it have a specific feel with some non-easy builds which make it very...particular. Hard to translate in text. But I suppose some here will answer your questions if you ask them.
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« Reply #2036 on: May 22, 2013, 03:24:44 PM »

im happy to help but i think raptor is the most knowledgeble about the nitty gritty of the mechanics ITT.
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« Reply #2037 on: May 22, 2013, 04:27:06 PM »

Yeah I am not really worried about the nitty gritty stuff, like best sword. I am more interested in stuff like the pacing and pattern of combat. I know that combat is a bit more deliberate and you can't just hack away. That's the system I am interested in.
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« Reply #2038 on: May 22, 2013, 05:33:40 PM »

You can store two "left hand", and two "right hand" equipments, and alternate them any time using the left/right d-pad buttons. You can also store a list of spells in your "up" d-pad to toggle if you cast those (it will automatically group multiples of the same spell, they're basically "ammo counts;" the game has no MP equivalent). Disposable items go in your "down" d-pad list (up to 5), and square(PS3)/X(360) hotkeys those.

Each weapon type has a 2 sets of light and heavy attacks (one- and two-handed), and each type of that weapon combines a set of those together. So two staff/spear weapons can share the same one-hand-light attack, but use different heavy attacks, and so forth. They all have windup/cooldown about on par with Castlevania, so you can't just flail widely without leaving your butt way open, and draining your stamina bar. Light attacks usually have a short 3-4 hit combo sequence with repeated input, but they're more rhythmic than rapid. They all drain a green "stamina meter," which replenishes during downtime, making combat sporadic and tactical in nature.

There are 3 kinds of spells in the game (Sorcery, Pyromancy, and Miracles), and each has a weapon set that summons them. Yes, they're basically weapons, with the ammo/spell determined by what you have in your "attunement" slots. You begin with one usually (2 for spell builds), and can actually level that up as a statistic. There are also standard weapons that can inflict magical-class damage, as well.

Shields are passive/positive, and it's pretty often you'll see a lot of players with them raised. You recover stamina quickly with them lowered, and slowly with them raised/blocking (hold L1). You can also try and predict (or quickly react) to attacks with a parry (L2), which has a little windup (about half that of a weapon), followed by a "parry window," and a cooldown about equal to a weapon's, maybe a little quicker. You can use these defensive manuevers while two-handing weapons, too, but not while dual-wielding. Many of the better shields include passive effects, like faster-regenerating stamina, an increased parry window, or extra resistance to status ailments like poison.

Critical hits are NOT random, ever. There are three ways to score Critical hits (usually for 3.5-4x base damage) - a direct light attack from a narrow back angle (about 20 degrees wide, you CANNOT BE BLOCKING!), an (unblockable?) "plunging attack" during a drop taller than your character, or successfully parrying and riposting an enemy's attack. These are very key in combat, and can often make-or-break even highly uneven matches, unless they're extreme cases.

You can choose to lock on to an enemy (R3) or free-form, as weapons have geometric range, ala Soul Calibur. For facing one adversary, or a small/compact group, it's easy enough to lock on, and then toggle by moving the right stick (think Spider-Man games); but with spread enemies, sometimes you're better off not being locked on (one enemy baits, the second slips up behind you).

Status ailments are meters that you can grow with your "resistance" statistic and certain equipment/garments. They're a meter that fills up with an effect before it takes effect, but then the effect lasts until it drains. 'Bleed' and 'Curse' drain instantly - curse instakills you and returns you in Cursed Form with half your Max HP; Bleed does an instant percentage of your Max HP in damage (usually about 80%!!). Poison/Toxic drains out of your meter slowly (unless it's still being added to) while burning up your HP. Some items and spells instantly empty these meters, without affecting you.

You can use evasive maneuvers with the O(PS3)/B(360) buttons. Tap to backstep, tap with the stick pressed to evade roll (there's hit detection issues there, but it's not invulnerable), or you can hold it down to run/dash. Each of these will use a bit of stamina. Running will drain it smoothly, and you do have a skid-stop to be aware of. If there's running involved, it's usually running FROM combat (lock-off, but rare because of backstab potential), to a strategic position, or in pursuit of someone fleeing - but again, that's rare and usually just people ducking around phantoms rather than facing them. It's also very easy to fall off of unfenced edges if you're not careful.

Finally, there's the jump-stab/kick. It's a little tricky to pull off, as it requires a simultaneous "press" of your movestick and L1(kick)/L2(leapstab). The kick acts as an instant guard breaker, for disarming turtles for quick followups, and pushing enemies off of ledges nearby. The leapstab is good for quickly closing some distance with an attack, but it's rarely used because it's highly telegraphed, and completely blockable/parryable. It doesn't go too terribly far, so it's not like it's all out-of-control-flying-off-the-arena. But the control scheme of these two does create your occasaional "input error" (player, not software) that can be capitalized on, or just lead to some interesting situations.
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« Reply #2039 on: May 23, 2013, 03:59:20 AM »

I don't have time to read absolutely everything but I think you covered almost everything.  Gentleman Did you mention equipment weight impacting stamina and speed, thus impacting the impacts on the gameplay?
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