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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesDark Souls and Bloodborne
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Author Topic: Dark Souls and Bloodborne  (Read 526916 times)
gimymblert
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« Reply #5200 on: May 09, 2015, 10:32:52 AM »

DQ 9 DS had a good idea about "rogue like" sharing with cave (also a great chest policy)
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SousaVilla
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« Reply #5201 on: May 09, 2015, 01:05:55 PM »

chalice dungeons actually have a good amount of lore to them and theyre not thaaat linear either. they still have shortcuts and multiple paths and etc. problem is that theyre atmospherically kinda weak ofc.

They felt extremely rigid to me. It was: start level ----> find lever to boss room ----> fight boss and move to the next level, with small optional paths whose only function was to give you new materials to make new dungeons and do this all over again. (and with ocasional unique rewards like the beast claw)

The lore itself doesn't make the dungeons feel organic instead of an artificial set of challenges. That was my main problem.

On a side note one reason progen tend to look samey is because of the handmade element they snap together, this isn't generated therefore will be repeated. In order to make chalice dungeon with npc and story elements, those would have to be generated at some level too so they don't repeat and you don't move the problem to elsewhere ...

Some roguelikes already alternate between procgen content and handmade content, like adom and shiren the wanderer. Adding an special room with a npc after a sequence of randomized stuff could help to set the atmosphere. Making some itens/weapons/armorsets have a chance to appear in a dungeon where it would be thematically fitting is another way to do it. They already do this to a lesser extent, they should only improve it.
 
Also, a large part of the chalice dungeons are not random at all.
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« Reply #5202 on: May 09, 2015, 02:03:01 PM »

the majority of the chalices is actually predesigned btw. only the root chalices are actually random.
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DJFloppyFish
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« Reply #5203 on: May 09, 2015, 04:53:59 PM »

just did my first root chalice

meh
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« Reply #5204 on: May 10, 2015, 05:31:54 PM »

I was mostly just super disappointed the different dungeon types kind of still look the same. I was expecting completely new sets of rooms: the first dungeon's room set was starting to get repetitive juust as I was about to get started on the second, so it seemed like it would have been perfect, but nope... I think the pool of rooms is a bit different between each type, but lots of rooms are shared, and they dont really feel different overall.
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DJFloppyFish
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« Reply #5205 on: May 10, 2015, 07:33:33 PM »

bosses so far are the highlight of the chalice dungeons.

also, for as so-so the level generation seems, I'm still loving the fact that I can effectively respawn bosses and keep playing PVE with some semblance of an end goal
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« Reply #5206 on: May 11, 2015, 04:36:52 AM »

it took me 3 playthroughs to realize that consumables like throwing knives and molotovs are actually really useful in bloodborne. in the other souls games i just ignored most of them. oops.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 04:58:29 AM by Silbereisen » Logged
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« Reply #5207 on: May 11, 2015, 05:04:45 AM »

abhorrent beast in loran chalice aka enter arena, die in 5 seconds
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gimymblert
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« Reply #5208 on: May 11, 2015, 05:59:46 AM »

It has happened, Silbereisen overtook Paul "chaos in tamil" Eres
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« Reply #5209 on: May 11, 2015, 08:08:22 AM »

abhorrent beast in loran chalice aka enter arena, die in 5 seconds

Had to google to remember wich one it was. So many similar beast bosses in the game, lol

Yeah, he's  really hard. I remember trying to teleport out of the arena with bold hunter's mark, but he was so agressive that I couldn't do it, even after several tries. There's a strategy to kill him with poison knifes and molotovs, though.
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DJFloppyFish
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« Reply #5210 on: May 11, 2015, 02:40:34 PM »

there are too many goddamn kinds of chalices
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« Reply #5211 on: May 11, 2015, 03:33:48 PM »

one nice thing about the chalice dungeons is that theres legit challenging content (particularly bosses) aimed at high level characters now. welp i suppose dks2 had that but it was dross like fume knight.
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DJFloppyFish
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« Reply #5212 on: May 11, 2015, 04:33:48 PM »

good luck getting to the interesting shit with new characters though. i definitely see the chalice dungeons functioning as fun replayable challenges but the grind you gotta do to get to the good stuff is kinda miserable

i would have preferred to see less chalices in favor of a more robust difficult ramp with different looking dungeons coming a bit earlier. im only on the hintertombs but im already dying to see loran and isz
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DJFloppyFish
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« Reply #5213 on: May 12, 2015, 07:53:41 PM »

so im guessing lower pthumeru really isn't a good place for a level 57 character. i just did the second boss and it took me awhile (the thing could freaking oneshot me). the guide says 80? wowowowow
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FK in the Coffee
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« Reply #5214 on: May 13, 2015, 08:37:38 AM »

Wanna preface this by saying that a) I'm a huge fan of the game so far, and b) the theming and atmospheric storytelling are sublime. Still, there's something about the rest of the game's storytelling that just doesn't sit right with me. It basically encourages you to sift through every nook and cranny to discover pieces of the larger story, but at the same time, the game's difficulty, coupled with the fact that enemies respawn whenever you die, makes exploration of the game world to find those pieces absolutely exhausting. If I clear a big room of enemies and search around for items and story bits, only to find out later that I missed something, it's a huge pain to have to clear the entire room again and risk losing substantial progress/blood echoes just to find a reward that may/may not be important.

I feel like Fez's design lent itself a lot better to that form of cryptic storytelling, as the risk of actual exploration was negligible, while the challenge came in the piecing together of the world's clues.
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« Reply #5215 on: May 13, 2015, 09:00:48 AM »

why would you lose blood echoes redoing something? wouldnt you spend them first?

also imo you shouldnt try to 100% the game and especially not try to figure out the entire story on your first playthrough. the story in souls games serves 2 purposes:

1. behind the scenes stuff that informs the game's level, character and mechanics design and basically the whole reason why its so atmospheric

2. an (incomplete) puzzle for fans of the game to figure out. i completed demons souls twice (this was before enb and the hype around the dks lore) before i started to even look into the story and even then i used a lore document from gamefaqs as my guide.


« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 09:22:10 AM by Silbereisen » Logged
DJFloppyFish
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« Reply #5216 on: May 13, 2015, 10:32:06 AM »

It wouldn't be souls if there wasn't stuff to miss, although I think they do a pretty good job of keeping the notes in places you're bound to hit through the course of the game.

It's important to note that the notes are a new thing. It used to be that information was only in item descriptions, and given the rarity of some items, story info could be even harder to find in some cases. I don't think they really have ever accounted for someone going out of their way just for lore. And I think that's fine. It adds mystique.

Besides, having to deal with respawned enemies is just kinda part of the game's design, even if you aren't looking for lore. 
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« Reply #5217 on: May 13, 2015, 11:43:07 AM »

most of the lore is STILL in item descriptions (well that and npc dialog)
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SousaVilla
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« Reply #5218 on: May 13, 2015, 11:49:21 AM »

Wanna preface this by saying that a) I'm a huge fan of the game so far, and b) the theming and atmospheric storytelling are sublime. Still, there's something about the rest of the game's storytelling that just doesn't sit right with me. It basically encourages you to sift through every nook and cranny to discover pieces of the larger story, but at the same time, the game's difficulty, coupled with the fact that enemies respawn whenever you die, makes exploration of the game world to find those pieces absolutely exhausting. If I clear a big room of enemies and search around for items and story bits, only to find out later that I missed something, it's a huge pain to have to clear the entire room again and risk losing substantial progress/blood echoes just to find a reward that may/may not be important.

I feel like Fez's design lent itself a lot better to that form of cryptic storytelling, as the risk of actual exploration was negligible, while the challenge came in the piecing together of the world's clues.

In most places you can run past enemies that you've already killed and get the stuff you missed. It's something that new players tend to ignore a lot. "Shortcut" in souls games come in the form of physical shortcuts but also when you discover new and fast ways to travel through levels.

so im guessing lower pthumeru really isn't a good place for a level 57 character. i just did the second boss and it took me awhile (the thing could freaking oneshot me). the guide says 80? wowowowow

The one after this is even worse, as you'll lose half of your health. Raise your vitality to 40+ if you wanna get less frustrated than me. (you can also use runes as well) I think the later chalices were made with ng+ characters in mind.
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DJFloppyFish
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« Reply #5219 on: May 13, 2015, 12:22:54 PM »

most of the lore is STILL in item descriptions (well that and npc dialog)

ya, just saying even major story beats used to be even more hidden

Quote
The one after this is even worse, as you'll lose half of your health. Raise your vitality to 40+ if you wanna get less frustrated than me. (you can also use runes as well) I think the later chalices were made with ng+ characters in mind.

shit. that's dumb. do chalices carry over to NG+? like, would i have to redo all of the preset ones if i beat new game or would my chalices stay in my inventory? they better because it sounds it would be kinda broken otherwise. too weak on ng for later chalices and too strong on ng+ for earlier chalices.
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