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[Average Software]

For now I am really suprised that so many people use OpenGL to create their games. 

It's one of the most popular rendering APIs in the world, why would this surprise you?

[rivon]

Why reinvent the wheel? There's Ogre, there's Irrlicht, there's Panda. All of them easy to use engines. I really don't understand what you'd get from programming in straight OpenGL/DX over some of the finished and stable engines. It's not like performance was a valid reason for you as none of the people here are doing AAA quality games.

[kamac]

It's one of the most popular rendering APIs in the world, why would this surprise you?

I am suprised because it's low-level API. It's harder to use.

Why create a wheel again? There's Ogre, there's Irrlicht, there's Panda. All of them easy to use engines. I really don't understand what you'd get from programming in straight OpenGL/DX over some of the finished and stable engines. It's not like performance was a valid reason for you as none of the people here are doing AAA quality games.

One of "stupid" reasons is that low-level OpenGL/DX gives you more flexibility, but the main reason to use it (for me) is because it's used professionally by game developers, so if you ever want to get into that, you will need to learn OGL/DX (unless you're not graphics programmer there I guess).
But yet, you can't write in you CV:
"Great SFML and Ogre3D skills"
It sounds rather funny. Better to have:
"Very good OpenGL's Core Profile knowledge"

But it's a reason for me only.

[Average Software]

I really don't understand what you'd get from programming in straight OpenGL/DX over some of the finished and stable engines.

Enjoyment.  I don't have any fun working with a pre-made engine, I like writing these sorts of thngs myself.

[rivon]

Of course, if you want to make engines, then sure, use OpenGL. But what about the other people who want to make games?

[Average Software]

Of course, if you want to make engines, then sure, use OpenGL. But what about the other people who want to make games?

The two groups are not mutually exclusive.

[rivon]

Well, I'm asking only the people who want to make games.

[ThemsAllTook]

Why reinvent the wheel? There's Ogre, there's Irrlicht, there's Panda. All of them easy to use engines. I really don't understand what you'd get from programming in straight OpenGL/DX over some of the finished and stable engines. It's not like performance was a valid reason for you as none of the people here are doing AAA quality games.

...seriously? Sure, if a pre-built engine is stable, easy to use, performs well, is available under the right license, doesn't bloat your file size too much, and does the specific thing you want it to do, it's a better choice. I'm sure that's the case a lot of the time, but what you get for writing directly in OpenGL is complete freedom and flexibility. I never think in terms of an "engine" at all when I'm writing a game. I can specialize my drawing code in whatever way works best for what I'm doing.

I haven't used Ogre, Irrlicht, or Panda, but I've used plenty of other high-level APIs, and my experience with them has always been that it's easy to do things that they were specifically built for, but as soon as you want to go off the beaten path it's a nightmare. The things that are easier balance out with the things that are harder, so it ends up being about the same as beating your own path for everything.

I don't understand your last point at all. How is performance only a valid concern for AAA quality games?

I am suprised because it's low-level API. It's harder to use.

Not as hard as you'd think. It's just a different kind of difficulty than what a high-level API would give you, as I've written about above.

[kamac]

Not as hard as you'd think. It's just a different kind of difficulty than what a high-level API would give you, as I've written about above.

I am still learning it, and comparing to say, SFML, it's quite much more challenging
So I've meant that it's hard, but compared to libraries.

[rivon]

but what you get for writing directly in OpenGL is complete freedom and flexibility.

Flexibility of what kind? Tell me one thing you can't do with one of those engines...

I haven't used Ogre, Irrlicht, or Panda, but I've used plenty of other high-level APIs, and my experience with them has always been that it's easy to do things that they were specifically built for, but as soon as you want to go off the beaten path it's a nightmare.

The things that they are specifically built for are 3D games. They definitely aren't built only for shooters. Or only for simulators. Or only for strategies. Any kind of 3D game is easy in them.

I don't understand your last point at all. How is performance only a valid concern for AAA quality games?

It isn't a valid concern only for AAA games. I meant it in the sense that you would really have to push the graphics to AAA level (lots of polys, high-res textures, lots of particles, lots of entities) to really start to feel that the performance isn't enough. And, frankly, that isn't happening with indie games... And, even if you really went for AAA level game, you would most likely choose UDK or CryEngine right from the start.
So, you see, I wanted to say that it's a stupid idea to go raw OpenGL/DX way instead of one of these engines because you were concerned of performance.

[kamac]

So, you see, I wanted to say that it's a stupid idea to go raw OpenGL/DX way instead of one of these engines because you were concerned of performance.

Sure, but my reason is still valid.

One of "stupid" reasons is that low-level OpenGL/DX gives you more flexibility, but the main reason to use it (for me) is because it's used professionally by game developers, so if you ever want to get into that, you will need to learn OGL/DX (unless you're not graphics programmer there I guess).
But yet, you can't write in you CV:
"Great SFML and Ogre3D skills"
It sounds rather funny. Better to have:
"Very good OpenGL's Core Profile knowledge"

You also learn OpenGL/DX for knowledge purposes and to know how it's done low-level.
Also, knowing OpenGL lets you, say, modify functions that you don't like in SFML.

[mcc]

I currently use two engines, depending on project:

- Jumpcore-- this is really just a way of saying "my custom engine", which uses raw OpenGL ES + Chipmunk.
- Polycode -- This is Ivan's thing, and I have a hacked version of it that lets me write my games part in C++ and part in Lua.

I am leery of overcomplex third-party engines for several reasons, some sensible some not, the largest one being that I want my games to be very portable.

[rivon]

So, you see, I wanted to say that it's a stupid idea to go raw OpenGL/DX way instead of one of these engines because you were concerned of performance.

Sure, but my reason is still valid.

I was not responding to you but to ThemsAllTook and Average Software.

I am leery of overcomplex third-party engines for several reasons, some sensible some not, the largest one being that I want my games to be very portable.

I hope your not talking about Irrlicht or Ogre here cause Irrlicht works on almost anything and Ogre works at least on Win/Lin/Mac, Android/iOS and I believe even Meego and Symbian

[voxelony]

So, you see, I wanted to say that it's a stupid idea to go raw OpenGL/DX way instead of one of these engines because you were concerned of performance.

Sure, but my reason is still valid.

I was not responding to you but to ThemsAllTook and Average Software.

I am leery of overcomplex third-party engines for several reasons, some sensible some not, the largest one being that I want my games to be very portable.

I hope your not talking about Irrlicht or Ogre here cause Irrlicht works on almost anything and Ogre works at least on Win/Lin/Mac, Android/iOS and I believe even Meego and Symbian

unity and udk have even less limitations and are way more flexible than ogre and irrlicht. and you do not even have to program in c++.
BUT:
they are all very static and if you need a very dynamic world, it is easier achieving it in opengl or direct3d.

[eigenbom]

woo sfml represent!

also, to contribute my 2c, i can see many indie devs using straight opengl just because its simpler to understand than a behemoth like ogre3d. if your visual requirements are fairly minimal then i'd say its just as easy to build your game in opengl than ogre3d, assuming you've had experience with  graphics programming.