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[Angrymatter]

I saw this controversy go down and I think we need to really look at what he is saying before we off handedly characterize him as a big douchetard.

1) Is there a single person on this forum who doesn't have a complaint about gamers as a group? Too sexist? Too gung-ho? Too critical? Not critical enough? How many times have you ever been called a flaming fucking faggot because someone captured the digital flag you were guarding? His comment that "gamers are the worst fucking people" came as a response to people directly telling him they would pirate his game because they don't like him. Guess what? Those people are fuckers, and I think he can call them out without being a douche.

2) We can argue about this all day, but there is plenty to support the case that modern Japanese games are not particularly good on the whole. There are exceptions of course, but there is evidence for this position. I will simply link to Japan's own Keiji Inafune on that topic: http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/04/keiji-inafune-qa/

Quote: "Across the world, American games are the best-selling and considered the most fun. But Japan’s gamers and game creators still won’t accept this. This is why Japan can’t win."

Granted not everyone in Japan agrees with him, but to harbor an intense dislike of Phil Fish as a person over two pretty justified public quips seems a little disingenuous.

Good man good... You are officially indie!

[Malky]

Wait what? This movie does not interview Derek yu or Adam Saltsman or Cactus OR Phubans OR like Paul Eres or I dono Leeroy jeekins or something!? What a load of crap!? What's it got? Ok theres the team meat guys....
There's that ritch bald guy who made the game where you jump on disconnected floating platforms with a secret anti cold war message...
Theres Someone else?
Oh and phil...

I dont get it.

I saw it, and it's not supposed to be a comprehensive look at the indie scene, but an in-depth look at a few people.  Instead of giving screen time to a bunch of people, a few people get lots of time.

It's not, "Here's a briefing on indie games", it's "Here's what happened with some people who are making indie games".

[Manuel Magalhães]

1)His comment that "gamers are the worst fucking people" came as a response to people directly telling him they would pirate his game because they don't like him.

He shouldn't generalize over 0.0000001% of gamers. I can understand that he dislikes that people pirate his game, but it's the same thing if I said "restaurants suck" if I only had gone into one or two.

2) We can argue about this all day, but there is plenty to support the case that modern Japanese games are not particularly good on the whole. There are exceptions of course, but there is evidence for this position. I will simply link to Japan's own Keiji Inafune on that topic: http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/04/keiji-inafune-qa/

Quote: "Across the world, American games are the best-selling and considered the most fun. But Japan’s gamers and game creators still won’t accept this. This is why Japan can’t win."

Granted not everyone in Japan agrees with him, but to harbor an intense dislike of Phil Fish as a person over two pretty justified public quips seems a little disingenuous.

The difference is that Kenji Inafune answer wasn't "Your games suck.". There's no problem on him disliking modern Japanese games, but he was too bland on his answer, specially considering he was talking with a complete stranger who happened to be Japanese.

[Paul Eres]

@raydog - well if you already knew what the controversy over phil fish was, why did you even bother to ask? your question was kind of disingenuous in that you knew why people disliked him and were familiar with the reasons, but you asked why people disliked him anyway

anyway i don't think most people disagree with what phil fish is saying, we just disagree with how he's saying it. there's a constructive way to say things and a dramatic way. e.g. jon blow made a video explaining why he felt japanese games were bad, giving reasons and examples (although i didn't agree with either his reasons or his examples, i still respected the effort). phil fish on the other hand used curse words, insulted a guy who flew from japan just to see phil fish (to the point where the dev was kept up at night in shame), and said things like "choke on my d*ck" to people who disagreed with him about it

so basically i think it's perfectly fine to have strong opinions, it's just a good idea to be respectful of others when you tell them your opinions

[Angrymatter]

I saw it, and it's not supposed to be a comprehensive look at the indie scene, but an in-depth look at a few people.  Instead of giving screen time to a bunch of people, a few people get lots of time.

It's not, "Here's a briefing on indie games", it's "Here's what happened with some people who are making indie games".

Well from that point of view yes. But then shouoldnt it be called Indie dev: the movie?

...

OOOOOOOH YEAH! Ima make that right now!

[moi]

It's of my impression that the pervading opinion here is one that Phil Fish is a pretentious arrogant asinine bootlick asshole bitchface motherfucker scum-of-humanity douchebag.

I dono. The facial hair looks kinda hot.

*whistle whistle*

[Angrymatter]

It's of my impression that the pervading opinion here is one that Phil Fish is a pretentious arrogant asinine bootlick asshole bitchface motherfucker scum-of-humanity douchebag.

I dono. The facial hair looks kinda hot.

*whistle whistle*

I mean that in a thermal sort of way

[JWK5]

Wait what? This movie does not interview Derek yu or Adam Saltsman or Cactus OR Phubans OR like Paul Eres or I dono Leeroy jeekins or something!? What a load of crap!? What's it got? Ok theres the team meat guys....
There's that ritch bald guy who made the game where you jump on disconnected floating platforms with a secret anti cold war message...
Theres Someone else?
Oh and phil...

I dont get it.

While I do get it, I am going to have to agree that I'd like to see those mentioned above get some face time.

There are others I'd like to see get some face time as well, those like Aliceffekt who do really interesting, unconventional things with their works, or those like Jack Sanders who polish the shit out of their games and then go back and polish some more (and never quite stop) and take and use all the feedback they can get, or those like SolarLune who not only have an interesting game going but take the time to make shitloads of tutorials and resources for others to use...

I see commentary by Jon Blow, Phil Fish, etc. all over but I think there is only so much they can say before they are just spinning their tires. There are a lot of really talented people out there (and here on TIGS), I'd definitely be interested in sitting down and listening to their stories.

[theRayDog]

I was asking WHY people were shitting on him, not for a brief history lesson on the indie scene. You answered my question in your second post, which is that while even though he is technically correct you think that he's a big meanie-face while communicating those ideas.

Plus, given the situation that Fish was in he couldn't have just whipped out a video from his pocket with detailed explanations as to why the Japanese games haven't lived up to their legacy lately. He had 2 minutes to answer the guys question. He did not know this man traveled there to see him, and whether or not he is Japanese shouldn't even come into the equation. He said something factually true, in a mean way, because he had a very short period of time to answer and to have an impact. I will not fault him for taking the chance and doing something with it, rather than giving some sort of diplomatic response.

[theRayDog]

Also the "choke on my dick" line was specifically to a twitter post where someone was calling him an "arrogant schmuck indie dev talking smack yet has zero released games". If I had just won the IGF for a game I'd been working on for 5 years, I'd tell him to choke on my dick too.

[moi]

I-like-TheRayDOg's-subtle-work-of-turning-the-thread-into-a-pro-and-anti-philfish-shitstorm-when-noone-has-actually-been-"shitting"-on-philfish.jpg

indie game the movie : when I want to watch people jumping intoo pools and sharing uninteresting life experiences, I prefer Jersey Shore

[JWK5]

Regardless of whether or not you are actually a professional you should still behave professionally.

[theRayDog]

Sorry, I guess I should just be making inane-slightly-funny-too-many-dashes-comments-that-contribute-nothing-but-taking-easy-shots-at-Jersey-Shore-because-we-all-agree-thats-dumb-amirite?

 

[Paul Eres]

@raydog - to be clear i don't think he's "technically correct" in all aspects -- i feel that modern japanese games are no worse than modern western games. i feel that both of them are terrible, and that the criticisms he and blow have of modern japanese games apply just as strongly to modern western games

and i agree that if it was just one comment or one off-handed remark than it'd be easy to ignore. it's more that it's a pattern. it's easy to overlook one, two, or even three disrespectful/offensive remarks, but when it gets to thirty or three-hundred, then it becomes a 'not him again' reaction

anyway there are plenty of other prominent indies who do not act the way he does when confronted with similar situations (for instance, the other people in indie game the movie), so i don't think you can blame everything on situation and nothing on his individual choice. if someone insults someone and they insult that person back, there's also the 'two wrongs don't make a right' thing; the original insult's existence doesn't excuse the return insult

[Angrymatter]

Yeah! Let's change subject. I think Edmund Mcmillen kinda sucks...