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891289 Posts in 33536 Topics- by 24775 Members - Latest Member: PestoForce

June 19, 2013, 12:10:14 PM
TIGSource ForumsDeveloperBusinessIndie game deadline (Question)
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Author Topic: Indie game deadline (Question)  (Read 2296 times)
Paul Eres
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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2012, 08:17:27 PM »

Deadlines are meant to NOT be broken. If you get into habit of missing them, they lose any value and it's becoming harder and harder to keep the team motivated.

Some tips that worked for me (missed only a single deadline during the last project):
- Typical mistake is to set impossible or overly hard deadlines. When you know you are going to fail, you don't even try.
- Have the first few milestones relatively short and easy. Use them to gauge how fast you can do stuff in reality. Then plan further ones according to that data.
- Make sure that the deadline was discussed with each team member and they said they can do their part. Even better - make them set their own milestones.
- Try using shorter milestones if you have problems. It's easier to plan ahead for a week than for a month.
- Have a clear goal for each deadline. Something rewarding. Like a new demo, or another level fully playable.
- The above also helps in determining which tasks are crucial and which can be dropped in the worst case scenario.
- Don't forget to include weekends and holidays in your plans.
- When you set a deadline, take the amount of time you think you can get it done and multiply it by two. It's to accommodate for unexpected issues, additional tasks that pop up, bugs, etc.
- General management tip: don't be an asshole about deadlines. Show people some trust. If your artist doesn't do anything for several days and then crunches overnight to get everything done, that's not your business as long as he's on time in the end. Most people hate to be nagged. If someone constantly misses their deadlines, just fire them.
- If you lead the team, try to never miss a deadline. Nothing demotivates more than a leader who seems to be slacking.
- Have a clear list of tasks that's available to everyone. Tick off things that are done daily. It's motivating and satisfying in that gamey way to see how things are progressing.

Hope it helps Smiley.

didn't you say that that game took a year longer than you expected? i'm not it counts as missing only "a single deadline" if you missed it by one year :p

((and yes i'm not one to talk))

that said, i agree with you for the most part. a couple of additions though:

i think deadlines keep you on track even when they aren't met -- for instance, when i did immortal defense, the original deadline was to do it in 6 weeks (crazy, i know). it wound up taking 7 months, but if i hadn't set the deadline of 6 weeks i never would have done it even in 7 months. so in that sense "made to be broken" makes sense in that even if you break it, it still benefits someone more to have set a deadline and broke it than to never have set one at all

also i think that short-term deadlines are more effective than long-term ones -- doing X, Y, and Z by the end of a month is a lot more achievable than doing A through Z by the end of a year

so short-term deadlines like that at least keep the game moving, i can't imagine making games without any sort of deadline at all, just working on whatever part of the game seems fun at the time. there are developers who work like that, but i can't really work that way myself, it seems incredibly dangerous to work that way (and often when a game is abandoned or never finished usually they were worked on in that way)
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ANtY
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2012, 02:01:54 AM »

Quote
i can't imagine making games without any sort of deadline at all, just working on whatever part of the game seems fun at the time.
How does this connect? I don't set any deadlines yet I have specified milestones, not "let's work on whatever seems fun"
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TeeGee
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2012, 02:08:07 AM »

didn't you say that that game took a year longer than you expected? i'm not it counts as missing only "a single deadline" if you missed it by one year :p

Haha, yeah. However, I was talking about our internal deadlines, the parts of the game that were actually scheduled, and not how the release itself slipped. Trying to find a reliable writer is not really something you can fix with deadlines and milestones -- it's a broader issue. The game's code, art and design were done in about 4 months, with one milestone slipping by about 2 weeks.
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Tom Grochowiak
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Paul Eres
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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2012, 08:11:47 AM »

Quote
i can't imagine making games without any sort of deadline at all, just working on whatever part of the game seems fun at the time.
How does this connect? I don't set any deadlines yet I have specified milestones, not "let's work on whatever seems fun"

i was considering milestones and deadlines to be almost synonyms (variations on the same thing), one just doesn't have a specified time and the other dies. a main thing about deadlines is not just its date, but also its line

but yeah some people have a to-do list but no schedule. i'm not sure that works either, but it probably depends on the individual. for some people having a schedule and feeling that they'd miss it causes such a large degree of stress that they are unable to work at all; for those people it's best to avoid deadlines, at least until they build up the psychological self-confidence to enable them to set deadlines without getting stressed about them

but i do know a lot of people who work like that: they have clear goals, they know exactly what they want to do, but then they don't set dates / timelines / schedules to reach those targets. so usually they don't meet them. i think one's control over *when* one acts is just as important as one's control over *what* one does, if not more important
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Paul Eres
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2012, 08:12:59 AM »

Haha, yeah. However, I was talking about our internal deadlines, the parts of the game that were actually scheduled, and not how the release itself slipped. Trying to find a reliable writer is not really something you can fix with deadlines and milestones -- it's a broader issue. The game's code, art and design were done in about 4 months, with one milestone slipping by about 2 weeks.

ah, i see. so most of the delay of the game was due to the writing not being finished, with most of the other stuff finished? that makes sense, yeah. does that mean you worked on something else while you were waiting for the writing to be finished, or did you just keep on improving the game's code/art during that time?
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TeeGee
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2012, 09:44:01 AM »

Yeah. Actually, all of the delay was caused by writing issues, with the whole game being done much earlier. We worked on something else during that time, tried to pitch another project to a friendly company, designed our next game, and took time to make additional art and improvements for the original project. It was a mess and precisely because we couldn't set any deadline on the release. When we finally found our new writers, a deadline was set again and we actually managed to get the game done one day earlier.
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Tom Grochowiak
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2012, 11:41:29 AM »

Yeah. Actually, all of the delay was caused by writing issues, with the whole game being done much earlier. We worked on something else during that time, tried to pitch another project to a friendly company, designed our next game, and took time to make additional art and improvements for the original project. It was a mess and precisely because we couldn't set any deadline on the release. When we finally found our new writers, a deadline was set again and we actually managed to get the game done one day earlier.
You also made Co-op, didn't you?  Tongue
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TeeGee
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2012, 11:47:04 AM »

Yeah, but that took like 48h in total.
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Tom Grochowiak
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2012, 11:48:58 AM »

Yeah, but that took like 48h in total.
Imagine what could you achive if you'd spend a year on one game (inside joke)  Well, hello there!
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Tumetsu
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2012, 12:49:46 PM »

How do you decide what is a milestone or a deadline and when it is? I use todo lists and they work well, but like Rinkuhero said one might suffer from not having deadlines & milestones. I think I have at least partially this problem.

For example right now I have big list of things in my todo, but can't really come up good deadline or milestone from them. In sense I don't know how to group myriad of little tasks, even if they have a same theme (like menus, enemy graphics etc.) and assigning unique deadline for each small task seems a bit overkill to me.

To rehash the question, how do you group tasks into meaningful groups which then can be set a deadline? After all many tasks are interconnected.
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ANtY
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2012, 02:35:26 PM »

My milestones are equal to new updates for the game, for example it's one milestone from version 0.6.0 to 0.7.0:

Quote
------------0.7.0-------------------
-Added confirmation message when you try to delete a profile
-Screen's shaking badassly when you're getting hit
-Fixed sounds
-Added skip tutorial option
-Flashing info "Beat Grey Wolf to unlock spells"
-Added fullscreen option
-Boosted everyone's HP and again rebalanced the whole game
-Lowered first enemies' HP
-Polished main menu
-Added special character abilities (more info in character creation screen)
-Notification how many HP does your shield provide
-Boosted Nature spell
-Fixed sometime not-working buttons
-Fixed famous 'wolf's bug'
-Redesigned character creation screen, now with cool character bios and better information presentation
-Added a lot of sound effects
-Added a lot of special effects
-Created new spell specifically designed for Water Spirit
-Added new item type - shields, also with some cool in-game effects
-Added shops with tier I items, also with an option to sell your stuff
-New background: Hills
-New background: Arena
-New background: City
-New enemy: Master of Arms
-New enemy: Earth Spirit
-New enemy: Nature Spirit
-New item: Wolf's Hide (drops from wolves)
-New item: Rat's Skin (drops from rats)
-New item: Scarre's Horn (drops from Scarres)
-New item: Ape's Back (drops from them monkeys)
-New item: Tear of the Goddes (drops from Water Spirit)
-New item: Root of Evil (drops from Nature Spirit)
-New item: Earth Shard (drops from Earth Spirit)
-New item: Klippen Gun (MoA's starting item)
-New item: Rod of Mages (Priest's starting item)
-New item: Club (tier I weapon)
-New item: Sling (tier I weapon)
-New item: Dagger (tier I weapon)
-New item: Wooden Shield (tier I armor)
-New item: Leather Cap (tier I armor)
-New item: Leather Armor (tier I armor)
-New item: Ring of Regeneration (tier I amulet)
-New item: Pendant of Wisdom (tier I amulet)
-New item: Moon Bracelet (tier I amulet)

It was on our todo list for the current milestone, of course I add some things ad-hoc when they're crucial for the game to stay playable after changes made during the milestone that I didn't know before how they'll change it.

We add one boss, one big feature and some more smaller ones in every milestone. For example in this it was MoA as a boss and the main big feature was shop, smaller ones were: new character creation screen,fixing some bugs, balancing gameplay, adding new spell for one enemy, and some more.

Anyway, I don't really see a problem in grouping tasks into milestones, after we finish the current milestone (which we just did) we spend a few days only thinking about tasks for the next milestone and discussing them. Works really fine!

Anyway, I'll make a post on my blog about the awesome tool I'm using for organizing this whole thing.
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nikwing
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« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2012, 08:43:43 PM »

Cool, looking forward for your tool
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eyeliner
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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2012, 01:46:05 AM »

I was thinking yesterday about one thing that ANtY right there plastered all over the screen:
versioning.

How do you decide that the version you have is 0.5/0.5.111111 or any other? Any magic formula? Or is it connected to the number of features complete from the ones in concept, like design the game with 100 enemies, 50 areas, 150 super powers and making half of that warrants a 0.5?
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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2012, 02:04:06 AM »

Version numbers/names exists only for you to know which state of the code is tested when you deliver a version.

In other words: each version should correspond to a testable state. That you have to diffuse it or not is your choice. You can have one version each time you send it to some people to test it. Or maybe you want to mark a specific testable version that include a new feature, and be able to get back to this state later (because you use a source control soft, right?).

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ANtY
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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2012, 02:11:56 AM »

From what I know it goes like this: 0.1.0 is for major features and 0.1.1 is for minor changes, also you can add 0.1.1b if it's really something small, like a single bug fix.
Anyway, you don't really have to stick to any guidelines about versioning, I do is as I like and it looks pretty legit.
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