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[Graham-]

I'll answer some now and some later. Let that be a habit (for me).

"Trash" tv is like "junk" food. It means to satisfy short-term desires, as a priority. It's not inherently bad. The word "trash" is meant to help identify it.

Single-minded means to be less accepting of certain kinds of opposition. Unjustified dismissal of disagreement. Insomnia isn't single-minded to an extreme. It is quite varied in many ways. At times, on certain subjects, it is the most "multi-minded," but when I gauge it as a whole, one of its most self-destructive traits is its single-mindedness. I don't mean that it is always that way or somehow "less" than other game writing because of it.

Art "potentially" produces engagement. For example, if I paint a brilliant painting and it is destroyed in a fire, is it any less brilliant? What if I paint it and no one in my co-existent society appreciates it, but people in a later one do? ... What I paint it and no one gets it (yet) because of poor distribution - i.e. it shows up in front of the wrong people? Your analogy about the artist who sees fame after death is on the money.

The thing about "intention" confuses me too. I don't know how it applies, but I feel like it matters somehow. ... I think I just wanted to express the general complexity of rating art.

There's a difference between marginalizing and ranking low.

[gimymblert]

So this no longer about procedurally ganerated stories?

Icys is only about the semantics, it's all virtual with no actualization, potential get spoken but never realized (none do games, they only play them), it's not about truth, rationalism or objectivity, it's only about social status through self validation, heavy rationalization to bend communication in their favor, a kind of self delusion.

By forcing their axiom they cheat on arguments because they trap you in their own advantageous frame of reference, which is used to discard any other frame so you can't claim favorable position. There is no communication it's an invasion cleverly disguise as deep thoughts, they claim some universal value, bend them to their view, then proceed to manipulate you by taking down any other value.

ON TOPIC
However I started with naive implementation I'll show snippet soon, nothing very fancy for the moment, it's about exploring hi level structure symbol and slowly deconstruct it to lexeme ... then works on procedural purpose to fill structure with actual hi level semantic (opposed to low level random semantics that would constitute typical procedural generation). In short working on grammar and syntax then working on discourse to fill the structure. that won't achieve the graal (at least yet) but might be good enough ala "minecraft blocky realism", ie an approximation whose coarseness is its very own aesthetics. I also narrowed the domain to only some facet of story. It's just time to do enough talk!

[Graham-]

I'll be interested to see it.

--

It's still about proc-gen, as much as it can be.

[gimymblert]

http://emshort.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/introducing-versu/
EMshort strike back

for the test I made i need some time I catch up some misc things before

[gimymblert]

http://emshort.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/versu-content-structure/
follow up

[gimymblert]

http://emshort.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/versu-conversation-implementation/
implementation details (similar to their gdc)

[gimymblert]

http://philpapers.org/archive/EVARPT.1.pdf
some more doc

[Chаrliе Sheen]

Looks pretty interesting I laughed out loud when I saw "completed achievemnt" haha. Now I'm fully expecting to see these in novels, films and even music! And too bad it's only for iPad.

[gimymblert]

Coming on all platform with creation tools

[gimymblert]

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/24530447/flash%20build/GameIdea.html

First test for structure, generated based on placeholder data, just to be sure the structure make sense. Starting with the simplest way. The game part is not the focus, I'll try to evolve world and story first down to actual usuable atom (understand feedable into a art generator).

I lost a computer and had to retrieve data, that's for the delay.

[Graham-]

I checked it out.

[gimymblert]

right now the prototype structure is:
gameType(player number + view + genre) +
worldDesign(size + tone + worldGenre) +
Gameplay(world + quest(action + objective + motivation) + failure + mean)

Some category are too ambiguous for my liking, I will break them down further until I reach satisfying atomical unit. It's also constrain free so composition is mostly nonsensical beyond syntactic correctness (like the famous: colorless green sleep furiously, but tighter due to more semantic fitness in my syntax).

[gimymblert]

One thing I want to address before solid complexity for story is good conflict/crisis/turning point generation, which mean give a good reason for a problem to appear that fit a generated theme. When I think about a story that's almost transparent in the process, however I found that existing generator are a bit weak about it. We tend to rely on backstory to expose an incoming problem, I need to explore this notion a bit more and try to find the domain of all problem generation.

Edit:
Basically a "pression" generator, pression generate problems that resolve themselves with crisi, creating a story (as a story being a state transition). Pression arise from needs which arise from property of agents.

Edit2:
What I want to achieve first is a good "why" generator in short before moving on complex things.

[Graham-]

You have to define conflict for any given character.

[gimymblert]

Yep but I'm working on generic descriptor now, both structure that ties things semantically and atomic descriptor that can describe any lexicon (exception that describe human experience you can't generate). The idea is that under most exception that need to be input into the generator dictionaries, there is atom and structure to describe them (just like syntax and alphabet manipulate words to expend on their meaning). Because of that, it mean that any new lexicon from reality potentially exist, a pure random generator can stumble on any of them simply by countless permutation, dictionaries (made of lexicon and template) are essentially both a shortcut and curated meaning to fit human experience closer. My goal is then to construct mechanical aspect, from which emotional and meaningful element will be express by a "discourse generator". Of course it's an ideal, the range of expression just has to be broad enough, real language too has limitation and fail to convey the true spectrum of human expression.

However looking at my note it was already there in the generic theme generator (not implemented yet). Basically I use a simplified maslow as a mean to describe thematic pressure: survival, relationship and satisfaction.

Basically they are gauge where movement, position or potential is meaningful. For example a survival gauge can be express by a hp bar, low position mean weak/injured/sick, high position can mean healthy, a negative movement signify an hit, is strength signify the severity of the hit, a positive movement is recovering from injury, depending on where the position is the movement has different signification, on a low position a big hit look critical, on a hi position it's a warning, if no movement is happening there is still a potential for negative movement which mean a threat (can hit) or an opportunity (can heal), if you had time it accumulate with movement trend (potentially or not), hit that goes smaller and smaller (deceleration) indicate fatigue. Now add more modifier, who is attacking a friend or a foe, what is the general context, what is the history, and then you can see past the number of the gauge that there is a very expressive tool, and we have yet to combine it with other gauge. Look at relationship (can be expressed by lovemeter) apply the same type of modifier and then look at how the meaning change when you change or mix type of relationship (love, brotherhood), etc... It does not give you the right expression, it just contain it all, bad, good or genius, it's all about the author/generator finding it.

[gimymblert]

Okay I outline 3 type of pressure, but I just remember that the great dramatica theory already laid out the origin of pressure, in a number of 4:
- Situation
- Attitude
- Behavior
- Activity

Actually it is generated by internal-external axis and state-process axis, it's a space. Internal mean that aspects of problem are internal to agent, vice versa external mean they are in the environment of agent. Process and state are pretty self explanatory I think.
Situation for example is external-state, attitude is internal state and behavior is internal process, pollution is an activity but polluted is a state. They are relevant because they define the source of problem and the type of solution needed. So for generated crisis (say threat) and link them meaningfully to a story problem we can create a cause (a threat because of a situation/attitude/behavior/activity for self/other which is desired/feared) that depend on that class: the sun is dying is an external process (activity), the never ending winter (external state), the forbidden love between opposing faction member (internal state), the foolishness of consumption (internal process). You solve the problem by ending the source of the crisis, how is inform by its class.

okay: now I need to translate that in abstract code term and be sure it mesh with target generation goal.

[Graham-]

I'm a little worried that you're going too broad.

I'm not saying that you are. I'm not even sure you might be, but for clarity I'll bring it up. What is your plan?

Do you want to create a tool that is stand-alone, maybe share it with others, get them to use it, play around with it, then think about games you can create with it?

Or do you want to make a specific game with what you have?

Is this related to your sonic game?

[gimymblert]

I want to create the abundant music of stories

The sonic game was there to learn about unity3D and have a goal of good complex 3D control for a simple platformer. I also have a racing game (architecture training) to learn to finish complete game according to a certain checklist. I'm stuck in both, the sonic game don't match my criteria of good, the racing game has minor architecture problem that has been solve and something with sounds not initializing at instantiation time for vehicle, i'm investigating.

[Graham-]

So it's a tool? That wasn't clear.

Do you have a project in mind to build with it right away?

[gimymblert]

right now I would like to evolve it for quests, archstory and backstory generation for spatially procedurally generated world. Not necessarily complex story, but at least filling the 5Ws.