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July 31, 2014, 05:29:18 AM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesOuya - New Game Console?
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Author Topic: Ouya - New Game Console?  (Read 91502 times)
Graham-
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« Reply #885 on: February 12, 2013, 08:57:36 PM »

consoles!
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« Reply #886 on: February 16, 2013, 08:47:21 PM »


Yeah, but she says @9:50 to re-invent consoles we need to "put the power back into the hands of the people who make things"

OK.  But that's just WRONG.  Waaagh!  No, I mean, what she says is just a bullshit snow-job because the OUYA does NOT put the power back into the hands of the people who make things.  In fact: It's more restrictive in some ways than developing for the other consoles.

I was excited to make games for OUYA until I actually started porting a WIP Android game to it and realized that they take away choices and dictate how I can make and sell my games.

For instance: I want to sell a game, you then have the game, that's all we're done.  You play it at your leisure after purchasing it -- No online service that can go down and prevent you from playing, no free to play (pay to win) micro-transaction funded BS that means I've got to add incentive into the game for folks to pay to get past arbitrary obstacles -- Add "Zynga Energy" limits.  That's sickening to me.

I thought that I'd at least have the option to just put a price on a game and be done.  Not so.  Then I thought: Oh, so I'll make a free trial and full version and you can buy the full version if you want -- let OUYA handle the distribution stuff.  Nope, that's wrong.

The OUYA won't let me sell my game to you the way I need to sell it.  All games must be funded by in-game transactions.  The development API has these payment options:  Recurring Subscription, Replenishable Items (buy in game items & currency w/ real money), and Unlockables (one-time purchase items).

For a dev like me who has done the research and just wants to find the "impulse buy" price point and sell you the damn game, OUYA doesn't give me the option I need to sell via.  Their rationale is that you can make a game demo, then use an in-game unlockable purchase to let the players buy the full game.

OK: Let me tell you something about Demos.  They Kill Sales.  This is not only my anecdotal evidence, but it's a phenomenon that's actually been experienced by many well received games with demos, and led to less sales than other well received games that don't have game demos.  This effect is magnified for cheaper / indie & mobile games (and even applies to Applications, not just games).

It's the same reason why the shareware model isn't such a great model, it's VERY hard to pull off a game demo.  You're working against yourself:  You have to let the players experience enough mechanics that they don't think your demo is shit, while at the same time contending with the fact that if you give the players enough content to be satisfied with they won't feel compelled to pay for your game -- You miss the impulse sale.  They'll think: "Man, that was great, I'm gonna buy this later," then play 50 other demos and totally forget about yours.  

What works to drive excitement, curiosity, and thus sales is footage of gameplay -- You want to experience that cool stuff you just saw, you have to buy the game.  Oh, but won't someone think of the players?!  What if they buy a crap game based on misleading videos?!  We already solved this in every damn app store: Satisfaction Guarantee Refunds.  You (impulse) buy the application / game, and try it out.  If you don't like it you get a full refund.  This is BETTER than the demo model because they don't need to wait to download the rest to keep on playing the game if they like it, and if the users hate it they can get a refund.  The end result is less work for the developer, streamlined sales, and more customers.

Oh, but what about Minecraft? It was basically a demo while in development, right?  Uh, Notch got payment up front for access to the Alpha versions -- It wasn't a free demo.

Your millage may vary, but what I've found is that my applications with free trial versions don't sell nearly as well (they tank) compared to a similar app with no free trial, just an impulse buy price point.   It's not just inde games and apps; See also: Mirrors Edge, Little Big Planet, etc. The OUYA takes takes away choice in the way I need to market my works, and dictates that I must use disgusting funding models or a model that I know actually doesn't work.

I've done the math, and it's actually not worth my time to port a game to it as it stands -- I'd have to set up my own content delivery servers and host the "full version" content on my servers and use the "demo" as a stub down-loader client -- You download it, then pay to wait to download some more.  I just want to make games and sell them; I agree to give Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, etc a cut of my profits because they're handling the distribution.

They may be successful on hype alone, I still won't give a damn if they still don't give me an option to sell my games the way I want to sell them.  They're not giving developers power, they're taking that power for themselves and dictating the rules of engagement. Their plan shows absolutely no regard for market research to support their ridiculous presuppositions.

OUYA?  OMFG!  NOWAI!
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« Reply #887 on: February 16, 2013, 09:02:48 PM »

Quote
OK: Let me tell you something about Demos.  They Kill Sales.  This is not only my anecdotal evidence, but it's a phenomenon that's actually been experienced by many well received games with demos, and led to less sales than other well received games that don't have game demos.  This effect is magnified for cheaper / indie & mobile games (and even applies to Applications, not just games).

not interested in the rest of the koolaid console talk but prove this
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alastair
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« Reply #888 on: February 16, 2013, 09:20:46 PM »

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zalzane
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« Reply #889 on: February 16, 2013, 09:38:15 PM »

china has 10x the GDP of sweden so its obviously a better country
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ஒழுக்கின்மை
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« Reply #890 on: February 16, 2013, 09:59:36 PM »

one thing to consider regarding charts like that is that the decision of whether to have a demo or not often has a lot to do with how well the game is expected to sell. a lot of games are expected to sell a lot, so the developers don't bother with a demo because it'd be pointless to make one, the game is already so anticipated and hyped that people are going to buy it no matter what

to really prove it you need a double blind controlled study. for instance: same game, same site, randomly (via a cookie) assign users a site with a demo and one without one. even that isn't perfect because the user might google and search for the demo or something, or figure out the trick, but for a very small scale game with a limited audience perhaps that type of study might work

my suspicion though is that demos hurt AAA games but not indie games, because they're so expensive and their main drawing point is their graphics, which you can experience in the demo, and then realize there isn't much more to the game than the graphics, since it's an AAA game after all. indie games rely more on fun, and a demo that's fun would cause someone to buy the game to experience the rest

overall though i don't think demos matter one way or the other. i own, for example, 600 games on steam. most of them i bought without ever touching their demo. it's possible that if i had played the demos of all 600 games i'd own a lot fewer games, but very few people play the demo of every game they intend to buy before buying that game. it's more of a convenience thing, to see if the game runs on a computer, or to help the discriminating person decide, but i would guess that for most people demos are irrelevant, and that most people are like me, deciding whether to buy a game or not without even trying out the demo
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« Reply #891 on: February 16, 2013, 10:05:13 PM »

china has 10x the GDP of sweden so its obviously a better country

Take the statistics with a grain of salt.  All I'm saying is that I base my future actions on past experience, and that experience is that for a similar product (even the same product, just two different markets) when there's a demo available I get much less sales.

So what if it's unproven that my experience holds true as a general rule?  Is that a valid reason to exclude the no-demo sales model?  Shouldn't you instead be saying what I'm saying: If OUYA is going to remove that sales model, then where's the proof that's a good idea?

Even if we look around and see no conclusive evidence that demos kill game sales, they have no proof that they don't.
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« Reply #892 on: February 16, 2013, 10:42:39 PM »



when and what games are these and why are game marketing people so bad at making analysis. theres a billion other factors that might have mattered

bioshock was out 2007. a demo came out a week before its release. the demo contained the first 10~20 minutes of the game, and that game's intro was probably the most polished part of the game. it was one of the fastest downloaded demos on xbox, about 1million downloads in a week. it had a 90+ metascore. pc version had drm controversy. it was 3rd best selling in the month it released and sold millions overall. direct competition was light when it released. this was at least a month or two before halo3 and cod4 came out. ps3 port came years after

mirrors edge was out 2008. a demo came out 2 weeks before it released and it had a portion of the demo itself locked unless you preordered the full game at select retailers (not a stellar demo) 80 metascore. pc port came out 2 months after. sold below expectations at launch but reached at least 2million in 2 years. had marketing behind it, tv ad presence and billboards. released the same day as cod5.

alan wake was out 2010. there was no demo. sales were similar to mirrors edge. released the same day as red dead redemption. 80+ metascore. it was also one of the most pirated xbox games.

and too human, seriously? would that have really suckered in a million more buyers without a demo
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« Reply #893 on: February 16, 2013, 10:44:37 PM »

It's weird hearing _e_va speak normally, but he makes some good points.
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Ouren
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« Reply #894 on: February 16, 2013, 10:57:45 PM »

 Big Laff
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« Reply #895 on: February 16, 2013, 11:09:34 PM »

Ouren, there is a brief window of time in which your profile picture raises it's eyebrows in sync with that laugh. Beautiful.  Gentleman
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« Reply #896 on: February 17, 2013, 08:51:50 AM »

The OUYA won't let me sell my game to you the way I need to sell it.  All games must be funded by in-game transactions.  The development API has these payment options:  Recurring Subscription, Replenishable Items (buy in game items & currency w/ real money), and Unlockables (one-time purchase items).

Once again: What the hell are the Ouya people thinking?!
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« Reply #897 on: February 17, 2013, 10:32:19 AM »

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Plus, every game is free well, free-to-try.Developers can offer a free demo with a full-game upgrade, in-game items or powers, or ask release episodic games.

from their website
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #898 on: February 17, 2013, 11:34:58 AM »

The key word there is can. Nowhere does it say that developers are forced to sell their game via in-app purchases. I can't for the life of me figure out why they're not allowing developers to just have two buttons on their game page: 'Try' and 'Buy'. Instead they're forcing IAPs down every developers throat.
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« Reply #899 on: February 17, 2013, 12:05:10 PM »

easy to fix. example, using zelda:

you walk into old man cave: "it's dangerous to go alone! pay a one time fee of $5.99 to take this."

bam

(or just don't develop games for this piece of shit)
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